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How Many Former Christians?
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ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject:

So you didn't have everything going for you and you were on drugs. You can see how this appears to the non-believer or skeptic. I would have just taken up painting

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject:

fiveeagles wrote:

We had a limo, were staying at the Waldorf inn, sitting on a wad of cash, surrounded by a bevy of beauties and I knew that this was as good as it was going to get....and it was miserable. It was at that time that I realized evil was the god of this world and that the only way out of this hell hole was through a savior.

If that's your idea of "misery" you really must be a Christian. Laughing

Does this mean you'd be willing to send me your limo and the cash?

Xian

Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:26 am Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Xian wrote:

The reason I converted:
I started attending a catholic church for a while because I met a nice girl (a catholic by habit and lifestyle only), not for purposes of faith. When the girl went, so in my life, church went also. As the saying goes, 'the penny never dropped' for me, it was an intellectual experience rather than a spiritual experience, but I did believe in something, but even then, I would be in clubs, drinking and I never changed. But it did something within me though. After a few years I kept having this feeling within me to go to church. . . . I did nothing about it, but one night on the town some nice girls invited me to their church. God wasn't my motive, the people I would meet there were of interest though. I went, the music was great and modern (not like the catholic church), there were heaps of younger people, pretty looking girls (remember, I wasn't there for God). They had great social events also, so I thought I would go again.
The following week all perspective changed and so did my motives. This is when I commited to God also. Up until then I felt normal inside, but then it was like a light went on inside me. I didn't feel like my life was dark before, but after that moment I saw my lifestyle in a new perspective. My life before then was just an endless cycle of alcohol, emptiness, material objects etc. They were all carnal / material things which never maintain long term satisfaction. I could see just how pointless this was, but I also felt like something in me changed and that my whole life would go in a different direction from that point in time (and it did).
That was also the time I started to read the Bible and pray. Before then I couldn't survive a few lines of the Bible, but then it just became interesting to me. I could understand parts of it now. Really, the Bible is an interesting read.
That day I believed, it was like I came alive again. Often Christians use that expression and I guess it is a hard one to explain to someone who does't believe, but I really understand it now. I know not everyone believes we have a spirit, but I realized it at that point. It is like the spirit was hiding in the dark, when I believed, it came out into the light. It was as if it was dead, but it came to life. I didn't want to live like I did before anymore. Not because I was brainwashed, (26 years of hedonism doesn't dissappear in 90 minutes), but because my heart changed at that time (maybe I should say my spirit came alive at that time).

So becoming a Christian wasn't a result of some spiritual journey through various faiths (but I do have a strong awareness of most other faiths, occult, freemasonry etc); I didn't look for it, but I firmly believe God used door knocking cult groups, a catholic girl and a few other experiences to open my heart up to Him.

So let me get this straight: you felt lonely and unsatisfied from drinking too much (or depressed?). You went to church to pick up chicks (fair enough) and were pleasantly surprised at welcomed you were by the community and that was the main appeal (maybe you didn't have many close, reliable friends at the time? just guessing). You really wanted to feel 'part of something', and since everyone else believed in god, you convinced yourself that you do too...

It always seems to be the same story with all newborn Christians. They're lonely and/or depressed, have drinking/drug or social problems, so they join the Christian cult to get a newfound sense of purpose and acceptance. I mean I understand, but I don't really understand... why couldn't you just have taken up painting or something? Or joined a tennis club? Or gone travelling? I really don't mean to sound belittling (maybe too late for that...), but giving yourself over to something like that just seems like such a cop out to me, as if the blind faith, strength in numbers mentality can ever be a real substitute for dealing with the problems yourself. I guess I just have too much a sense of personal responsiblity. If I screw up in life, I deal with it myself. It's nice (and important) to have friends to help you along, but at the end of the day it's your life. Trusting in and 'giving yourself to 'god'', and obeying 'his laws' unquestioningly is like abdicating your responsibility as a person. Just my opinion.

Well, firstly, I wrote that because someone was curious that someone would convert at my age.
If a person has a bias it will make the person miss the whole point of what I was saying. I was noting that I was like most men my age. I was out for a good time, I wasn't looking for God, I was satisfied with my life, but once I opened up my heart, the unexpected happened (((((THEN))))) I saw things in a different manner. I saw my life in a new way. As I said, it was like a light went on inside myself. This is what Christians call a born again experience (spoken about in John 3). When I say that I saw my life before hand was pointless I meant to highlight that compared to this experience, it was just something that I was no longer wanting and it produced nothing in my life that would continue to satisfy me. Really, (generally speaking) how long in life will someone stay satisfied when their high points are looking forward to the next night of drinking, the next time they might meet someone, waiting for the next gadget, waiting for the next holiday etc. That is how most people live, whether they think about it or not.
My life wasn't that bad. I had a reasonable job and some friends and a social life, as evident by what I was doing.
It took years for my heart to open up to such a thing. This thread has many people who don't have a heart open to these types of things so no matter what we say or share about our experiences, you will find yourself t0o blind and hard hearted to open up to the possibility that God does exist. If God is really your Creator then you will only understand this by seeking Him. There are great apologetic arguments for faith, but people will still not change without a spiritual experience.

People come to God for different reasons. Christians are all different, but drawn together by our common faith. However we are drawn to it isn't the issue.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:52 am Post subject:

Xian wrote:

Really, (generally speaking) how long in life will someone stay satisfied when their high points are looking forward to the next night of drinking, the next time they might meet someone, waiting for the next gadget, waiting for the next holiday etc. That is how most people live, whether they think about it or not.

Okay, but this to me sounds fairly typical: you were suffering from something akin to existential ennui, or in simple English "boredom". This is what happens when you become idle in life. Having money and girls is fine and dandy, but if you don't have a means of creative output, life can begin to seem meaningless. I've seen newborn Christians convert because it was something new and fresh for them at the time. For many of them when they get baptised, they are so full of ecstacy (I mean the feeling, not the drug Wink

) that it really has a drug-like effect on them. They get hooked on it (like going into trances etc.), just as some people get hooked on the thrill of extreme sports, or sex, or hard drugs or whatever, but sooner or later the high wears off. The next high is never quite as satisfying as the first, and eventually they're back to their old depressed, bored selves again, only this time there's the added neuroses of religious commitment added in.

I really believe the answer is not 'giving yourself to god', but in solving your problems yourself, giving yourself meaning. 'God' cannot do this for you. The best 'god' can do is keep you resigned and complacent, until you die, having squandered your whole existence. You only have one life to live, I believe you should spend it devoted to living, being creative, pushing the boundaries of experience, and that your quest should be self actualization.

Just my opinion.

Xian

Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:24 am Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Xian wrote:

Sure, I understand where you are coming from, but I just can't agree with it anymore.
You are right, many in life start to struggle when they have problems or are idle, but I actually think that is a good thing as they are often more open to the spiritual realm. Also, a big motivation for Christians talking about their faith is that they are not thinking purely from a lifestyle point of view, but rather an eternal view. As you would know, we believe that this time on earth in the body is small on the eternal scale, but what happens here has the ability to impact all eternity.

Regardless of faith or not, I agree it is healthy for a person to take up various activities, whether sports, hobbies etc. But I don't think they can be used as bandaids for personal issues in ones life. They are good, but of course, I believe everyone is better off for knowing God (not religous church participation out of habit, but a life of prayer, worship, Bible and seeking after God). Actually, the issue at stake isn't even one of lifestyle, that is an issue, but more out of consequence, the main issue is understanding and receiving the grace of God. Someones lifestyle isn't the measure of needing God. There are happy and sad people from all backgrounds.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:41 am Post subject:

Xian wrote:

An old Christian argument (I think from Pascal) has been the "what do you have to lose?" question - like if you don't believe in god you may go to hell, but if you do (and it turns out there is no god) it won't have mattered anyway. In other words, your soul is at stake, so if you don't believe you will end up suffering eternal damnation if you're wrong, but if you do believe there's nothing to lose and everything to gain (so it should follow that everyone should be religious out of common sense). Now I know some Christians say that goes against free will or whatever, but what I really want to do here is turn it around the other way. If you are wrong about god, you are wasting your whole life believing in nonsense and limiting yourself for no reason.

Now Christians tend to see the world as an unsatisfactory place anyway and look to heaven, but I say if you accept that this is the only world, then you will come to see it as beautiful for what it is. In fact I find the concept of heaven abhorrent. I'd rather 'cease to be' than spend an eternity doing anything. Heaven would become excruciatingly boring, to the point that it would be dialectically interchangeable with hell. Life is great because it's temporary.

Quote:

Regardless of faith or not, I agree it is healthy for a person to take up various activities, whether sports, hobbies etc. But I don't think they can be used as bandaids for personal issues in ones life. They are good, but of course, I believe everyone is better off for knowing God (not religous church participation out of habit, but a life of prayer, worship, Bible and seeking after God). Actually, the issue at stake isn't even one of lifestyle, that is an issue, but more out of consequence, the main issue is understanding and receiving the grace of God. Someones lifestyle isn't the measure of needing God. There are happy and sad people from all backgrounds.

Well you can think what you want. Personally I am happy without god. I don't want a god to exist (and I don't mean that spitefully). I truly love the freedom that comes from living my own life.

Xian

Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:47 am Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

I like my life and I agree that the world is a beaufiful place, but obviously has its problems.
To say we are limiting ourselves is a subjective argument based upone ones tastes. I guess many people have tasted various lifestyles. I am content with mine as it is in most aspects.

We are only limiting ourselves in life from the view of people who would rather live differently, but we could say the same thing, that non-Christians are limiting themselves also; the differences lie simply in what we do with our time on earth in that case.
Also, if we are doing what we do out of our heart, it would especially show that it is not restricting us, it is by choice. When someone is trying to change purely from an intellectual standpoint, then that is limiting because it is not out of desire. That is why someone really needs something deeper to maintain change.

I find the 'repent or go to hell argument' ugly and I would not use it. I am sure in most cases it probably would put people against God even more.
If we are wrong and your view was right, then we would have altered our time on earth and that is it. If we are right, then. . . . well, you know. I personally would like to see someone come to God through an understanding of His love and grace than the threat of hell. That is not to say it is wrong theologically though. Whether someone wants to change or not, the implications of what we believe about the Gospel are very big.

Xian

Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:03 am Post subject:

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote:

Now Christians tend to see the world as an unsatisfactory place anyway and look to heaven, but I say if you accept that this is the only world, then you will come to see it as beautiful for what it is. .

This would make an interesting thread, though not exactly on this topic. I believe a solid Christian view of the world would be one that sees the beauty of the world and want to look after it. God loves the world.We ought to look after it and enjoy it.

Eschatology (theology of the end times) has varying views. Some think heaven is like an escape to somewhere far from here, other theologians believe that heaven will actually be here on earth (renewed).

It is a wonderful thought to consider heaven, what is revealed in the Bible is great, but as Christians, we ought not to ignore the fact we are on earth now and what that means for the Christian. To neglect that is not
being in reality.

Regardless of view, we should enjoy the world and look after it. It comes back again to what we believe happens after death.

Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat

Joined: 01 Apr 2007

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:38 am Post subject:

Xian wrote:

I don't think it is subjective (I mean it is to a point, like determining what is "meaningful" on a personal level at a given time). But it terms of limitations here on earth, I think Christianity is limiting. Can you really live some kind of a Faust-like existence, trying as many new things as possible (often requiring a rather amoral [not immoral] outlook)? Not only do I think that Christians don't have the incentive to seek out as many new worldly experiences as possible, but I think at the end of the day it would be damnable (on their terms) for them to do so.

Quote:

We are only limiting ourselves in life from the view of people who would rather live differently, but we could say the same thing, that non-Christians are limiting themselves also; the differences lie simply in what we do with our time on earth in that case.

But when you speak of "life", I assume you speak of living here on earth? At least that was what I was referring to when I spoke of limitations (i.e. living in this world as a non-religious person gives you more options).

Quote:

Also, if we are doing what we do out of our heart, it would especially show that it is not restricting us, it is by choice. When someone is trying to change purely from an intellectual standpoint, then that is limiting because it is not out of desire. That is why someone really needs something deeper to maintain change.

Okay then, well limitations can be voluntary. Not arguing there. I suspect a lot of that would come from either complacency or masochism though...

Quote:

I find the 'repent or go to hell argument' ugly and I would not use it. I am sure in most cases it probably would put people against God even more.

That's good. But at the same time you do believe that those who don't accept Jesus will burn, right? I'm glad I don't have that monkey on my back...

Quote:

If we are wrong and your view was right, then we would have altered our time on earth and that is it. If we are right, then. . . . well, you know. I personally would like to see someone come to God through an understanding of His love and grace than the threat of hell. That is not to say it is wrong theologically though. Whether someone wants to change or not, the implications of what we believe about the Gospel are very big.

In other words, the threat of hell remains... I always figured the punishment element was made up by the most vengeful Christian thoughts. Believe us or you will burn. I agree, it's ugly...

Still curious what you though of my previous point:

I wrote:

Heaven would become excruciatingly boring, to the point that it would be dialectically interchangeable with hell. Life is great because it's temporary.

What do you think heaven will be? How could an eternity of anything not drive you to complete madness?

Last edited by Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat on Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:52 am; edited 2 times in total

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:51 am Post subject:

I don't see the safety in Pascal's wager. Religious believers seem to predict eternal damnation not only for unbelievers like us, but for believers who disagree with them. What would you say about a professor who wrote five homework assignments on the board, said that only one of those assignments was the assignment for next week, and that the students were to guess which one. He would only read papers from students who correctly guessed which was the correct assignment, and give F's to all the other students. There was no point in working more than one assignment, because he would accept only one paper from each student. Wouldn't you say that such a professor was unjust? Then how could you worship a God who is similarly unjust?

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