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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
Stay on point? You've brought up my relationship, my marriage, my visa stuff all in an attempt to try and discredit my position about your government. I am actually conversing with a jingoistic child here. And then, said jingoistic child says TO ME "stay on point". haha. yeah.
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Interesting thread. Gopher's not the first one to speculate about the demise of your relationship being the possible reason for your new posting agenda. Another poster did the same the other day, and I also found myself speculating along those lines before that even.
Anyway, it's a bit of laugh to see you bemoaning posters bringing up personal stuff on this forum. That's always been a notable feature of your own 'debating technique.'
Anyway keep it up. It's all very enteraining.  |
My posting agenda? Jesus. That's BLT style. |
Aren't you the one here calling other posters "child" - which sounds rather BLTesque to me. Keep it up though, it's certainly livening up this dead forum. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| I said many times on this site that I knew nothing about the war in Iraq. Well, I've educated myself. Holy hell is it bad. The more I learn the most offended I get. The more I read about these topics, the more convinced I am that American democracy is functionally dead. |
1. In regards to iraq, yeah, it has been a disgrace and embarrassment for this country. I totally agree. That being said, violence in Iraq has dropped significantly in recent months. It looks like the Iraqis finally got sick of the violence and it helped that both our government and military finally got some idea of what actually works over there.
Point being there appears to be some light at the end of the table. On the other hand, the only candidate who I think is seriously considering extending a large troop presence in Iraq is McCain, and he is most likely going to drop out of the race by March.
2. What makes you think American democracy is dead? It is clear that the nation has woken up to Bush's ineptness. I don't think you'll see any action close to the Iraq war in the next 30 years or so. Hopefully more, but you never know. Don't believe me? just look at what happened to the USA following the Vietnam War.
That being said, I do not have an upbeat feeling about the US future. While I don't think it will crash and burn by any means, I do think our priorities are out of wack. We should be focused more on staying on top than anything else. Unfortunately we get bogged down in less relevant issues and everyone else becomes closer and closer to us. I suppose that might not be a huge problem, but when a big stimulant for our economy is our innovation, it is essential that we stay at the forefront of technology and the like. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Well, he is being a child and a "posting agenda" is a really stupid phrase. What could I possibly hope to accomplish on this site? It is a time waster.
My positions have always been very consistent. I believe in non-violence as a the primary value for humanity and the fundamental organizing principle for a society and government. If government "x" is violating this, I have every right to speak my mind about it even if it is not the government named on my passport. So, there. My posting agenda. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
What makes you think American democracy is dead? |
There are two political parties and both have been bought by special interests and the hyper-wealthy. No meaningful change is even possible as these interests will stand in the way. The only real outcome possible is policy inertia. If the people are unable to force change, then the people have no power.
About Iraq. Isn't it the case that the violence is down because the violence achieved its objectives? The country has been ethnically cleansed and divided up into ethnic areas. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think you'll see any action close to the Iraq war in the next 30 years or so |
under the assumption that Ron Paul will be the next president, you may be right.
without such assumption, i think you couldnt be more wrong. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
What makes you think American democracy is dead? |
There are two political parties and both have been bought by special interests and the hyper-wealthy. No meaningful change is even possible as these interests will stand in the way. The only real outcome possible is policy inertia. If the people are unable to force change, then the people have no power.
About Iraq. Isn't it the case that the violence is down because the violence achieved its objectives? The country has been ethnically cleansed and divided up into ethnic areas. |
thepeel, you just described the American political system during its entire existence (ok, not so much the hyper-wealthy). Special interests are what dictate policy making. That is just the way things work in our political system. When has there ever been drastic policy change in the united states? When the country has been forced to do so.
What makes you think that things are different now than before? Why do you think the hyper-wealthy have a bigger influence on government now than ever before in the States?
I concede that Halliburton and the contractors involved in Iraq would prove your point. That being said, I dare say that was an anomaly and just more evidence that Bush's administration has been disgraceful and incompetent, while Congress was its lap-dog for way too long. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Right. Halliburten, KBR, Dyncorp, blackwater. I'm less concerned with unions and just regular old corporations than I am the type of corporation that has the ear of the government. A union might want health care, trade barriers and such. The military industrial complex wants demand for their goods. And demand they have been getting.
I will continue to reevaluate as I learn more. If a democrat wins and takes the country in a different direction then I'll probably change my mind. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| I will continue to reevaluate as I learn more. |
Try this, then: politics is the art of negotiating and reconciling what you call "special interests." Has always been so, from at least as early as feudal times, and indeed earlier and across cultures.
Indeed, George Washington advocated a Potomac improvement project. Good for the country, he argued. And in fact it was. But guess who owned property whose value multiplied after said project brought commerce through his lands en route the sea...
Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton negotiated a backroom deal over dinner one night -- that is, outside of Congress, where it was supposed to have been openly discussed -- that placed Washington, D.C. in its present location in exchange for Virginia's backing the Assumption Bill....Jefferson! My God!
Your position that American democracy does not function "as it was intended to" because a simpleton like Ron Paul decries this state of affairs while romanticizing an Early Republic that never existed -- and all this in an election year, no less -- betrays utter innocence if not foolish gullibility on your part.
You create an Ideal that never existed and then castigate contemporaries for failing to meet such Utopian standards.
Puerile.
And the mark of leftist politics, of course.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Dude, how did you have a rambling post with mutterings about simpleton this and Ron Paul that without a single Chalmers Johnson reference. You're off your game.
I'm sure the men who designed the system of negotiations had in mind KBR whispering in the ear of government to invade a sovereign nation. Right? The Republic is strong.
Last edited by thepeel on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Easy.
Because Ron Paul parrots Chalmers Johnson nearly every time he talks -- when not complaining about Congress's awarding Rosa Parks honors, that is. He also expressly refs Johnson in his "required reading" lists, such as those he offers other candidates...
Well, even you can probably see where I am going with this, BJWD. Any ref to Ron Paul necessarily incorporates refs to Johnson, dude. 
Still chuckling that you are here slaying dragons on a Chalmers-Johnson thread where you have not read a single one of his monographs.
"The Republic is strong?" No, that is not what Johnson says. He says it is dead. Under the military-industrial complex's dictatorship. The Caesars rule now -- his analogy, not mine, by the way.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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1) Ron Paul cites one idea and only when he discusses foreign policy as it relates to 9/11. That you want to distort this is typical of right-wing politics.
2) Ron Paul asked members of congress to each give 100$ or so of their own money for an award for Parks. He didn't want to spend other peoples money but his own. The horror.
3) His required reading lists are basically asking Republicans to expand their reading beyond Ann Clouter books and the bible. He would probably have more success giving the reading list to a dog. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| His required reading lists... |
Are certainly the opposite of Coulter: Stephen Kinzer and Chalmers Johnson. Just as nonsensical as anything Coulter has ever published, but from the other side of the extremists' political spectrum.
That you are only aware of the extremist literature in American political discourse and feel that one must choose between them does not surprise me.
I will restate this point: anyone who takes their cue on American foreign relations from the likes of Kinzer, Johnson, or Ron Paul, or Metropolitan/Owl Books and Henry Holt and Co., for that matter, is a moron.
You want something for a foreign-policy reading list? Try Christopher Layne's Peace of Illusions (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2006). Oh yeah, guess what side of the spectrum Layne writes from...? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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Ron Paul's reading list:
The 9/11 Commission Report
Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire by Chalmers Johnson
Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror by Michael Scheuer (the former Chief of the CIA�s bin Laden Unit, Alec Station)
Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism by Professor Robert A. Pape of the University of Chicago
Jeeze. This Ron Paul character wants Rudy to read the 9/11 report. What muckraking yellow journalism this must be! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| ...the 9/11 report. What muckraking yellow journalism this must be! |
Way to keep avoiding talking about Chalmers Johnson and his views. And I remind you: sarcasm is not refutation. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Now, are you trying to show off your elementary ability to use the search function or can you not see that my handle has changed from bjwd to thepeel? Maybe you think you are clever? That you are special for being able to push "see all posts"? Maybe you think I'm trying to hide? Now, wouldn't I just have set up a new account if I wanted that? I had to change my name and password when I changed jobs as I was afraid the computer had logged them. You. Are. Not. Clever. Say that 3 times every morning in the mirror.
| Quote: |
| Still chuckling that you are here slaying dragons on a Chalmers-Johnson thread where you have not read a single one of his monographs. |
And I'm still chuckling that I started a thread with the sole purpose of winding you up and dragging you back in and it worked.
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"The Republic is strong?" No, that is not what Johnson says. He says it is dead. Under the military-industrial complex's dictatorship. The Caesars rule now -- his analogy, not mine, by the way. |
Who cares what Johnson says? The OP was about the concept of blowback, not your personal hatred for one of the men who reckons it true. |
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