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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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endo exclaimed, dribbling from his bib:
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STEVE!!!!!!!!!
You said you wouldn't teach in such and such country because of their deplorable human rights record, while at the same time having had taught previously in China. Just be a man and admit you messed up. We all do. But your insistance on maintaining your defeated argument makes me question your failure to understand that yes, sometimes you might be wrong. It's kind of childish dude. Give it up. |
Uh, Mushroom Man, what's childish is your billboard salutation.
Here's what I actually said in my original post:
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| As for myself, I would not ever consider going to teach in any society where I would have to watch my every move for fear of offending some religious zealot and landing myself in prison, or worse. Indeed, I wouldn't deign to even consider applying to teach in a country whose people weren't likely to welcome me and treat me as a guest (which is one of the reasons I'm leaving Korea). |
These were never concerns for me in China.
And then this:
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| I simply could not justify teaching in such an oppressive society where women are second class citizens, ...and where I would be strongly discouraged from mentioning (much less celebrating) my cultural heritage or societal preferences. |
Again, these were never issues of concern in China. Ironically enough, the PC mindset of North American and Western European campuses nowadays has become so pervasive that a professor with a contrary view would be ostracized, stifled, or let go.
Finally, in the subsequent post I reiterated:
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| However, I refuse to work in any country where the government AND the vast majority of the citizenry continue to support a system of gender apartheid, where theocracy dictates all social conduct but by a double standard, where autocracy is privileged (e.g. Russia) even by the masses, or where I know I won't be allowed to present alternative ways of living or thinking. |
Note the stipulations, endo, if you're able. As I've said repeatedly, there is NO government policy of gendercide in China, nor do most Chinese support it.
So I guess that makes you the willful little child, doesn't it? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Note how Stevie so conveniently left out the part about being a man of principle. That is the part that people have had a horse laugh over. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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He's a man of principle alright.
"I like any country I got blowjobs in" |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Stevie has an up-tight aura about him, and then all this concern for women (that I don't buy for a second)...I'm thinking exclusively missionary position and then only with clothes on in the dark. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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And I'm thinking, yataboy, that once again you should be sent to the corner of the classroom to wear the dunce cap.
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| That is the part that people have had a horse laugh over. |
How appropriate given that you are a horse's azz.
I live in the human world, where principles clash with realities on a daily basis and where idealism isn't dictated by cynics of your ilk but is instead guided by the conviction that one should seek to contribute to educational reforms if and only if the host country is sincerely receptive to it. I suppose you're under the illusion that the typical MOE official here in the ROK regards you as anything more than a backpacker who can babysit or do a few tricks like an organ grinder's monkey.
As for you, twg, well let's just say your avatar supremely befits you. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
China has made great strides in human rights in the last two decades but still has a long way to go. Any China Hand will tell you the same.
It has clearly defined laws and regulations concerning infanticide and what you ingenuously lable gendercide. Those are enforced at the provincial level quite uniformly but at the district level in rural areas not so well. |
Yeah, I agree.
I would guess everyone criticizing Steve here hasn't been to China. The country is an environmental mess, and people's full human rights are not recognized, but that was true of Korea not 25 years ago.
I do think its unfortunate that Steve sees China as a particular exception to the rule that one cannot hope for the best from autocratic societies. I think the more Westerners go to places like the Sudan and Saudi Arabia, the more good can be done. If anything, those are the very countries where we should be teaching!
BUT, I think its downright disgusting how most of the posters suggest that China is simply a poor, backwater where white men can get off.
The idea is: Someone likes China, therefore they must be a pedophile/pervert. Those on this forum who are advancing this idea have gone beyond legitimate criticism of the incongruity of Steve's skepticism of autocratic states combined with his optimism for China.
I'm not going to defend the attacks on Steve, because he's a big boy. But, damn, there is a heap of ignorance in this thread. The China-bashing here is about as bad as the Korea-bashing is on most of the off-topic threads. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I live in the human world, where principles clash with realities on a daily basis and where idealism isn't dictated by cynics of your ilk but is instead guided by the conviction that one should seek to contribute to educational reforms if and only if the host country is sincerely receptive to it. |
In other words, Steve has deeply held moral convictions... only when they're convenient for him to use. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros: Excellent post-though I might disagree about the "good" Westerners could do in the Sudan & Saudi Arabia!
Totally off-topic... Who's the guy in your avatar?
Steve: You can undoubtedly be regarded as the "China hand" here, so I'll pose this scenario....
You're teaching at a Chinese university. Students are at an advanced level so you want to try some innovative tactics. One of your ideas involves having students paraphrase excerpts from the Bible. Another includes a formal debate on the topic "Resolved: Taiwan should be able to declare independence following a Taiwan-only referendum."
Now, this is my theory on how "receptive" the authorities would be: your contract would be terminated and you'd be given about 48 hrs. to leave the People's Republic.
True or not? Seriously, mate, I'd like to hear your take on that. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Mosley inquired:
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| Now, this is my theory on how "receptive" the authorities would be: your contract would be terminated and you'd be given about 48 hrs. to leave the People's Republic. |
To be sure, there are no-no topics for foreign educators in mainland China: Tiananmen, Tibet, and Taiwan ("the three Ts") and Falun Gong.
I was asked once to give a lecture at a major university in Beijing on Falun Gong but declined on three counts: First, I'd criticized cults in general once in class in passing (my youngest brother having once belonged to one--The Way) and this particular movement's use of children to press home their point, even allowing one to set herself ablaze in Tiananmen Square but guessed that had I strayed from this position my speech would have been challenged by some in attendance. I don't think I would have been required to submit a text of my lecture in advance. Second, I didn't consider myself sufficiently knowledgable about Falun Gong to speak out against it. Third, I didn't want to abuse my foreign expert status by so doing.
I have heard of other novice FTs in China blurting out things about one of the three T's. In all these instances the teacher in question was asked to refrain from making future references to the topic in class. Generally FTs who press these issues are punks who want to impose their own agendas or set the Chinese in their place. Most are young, rabid ideological types who don't have a sincere interest in genuine discourse regardless and use the lecturn as their bully pulpit. (We can pretty well guess which posters to this thread would fit this bill.)
Raising these issues in a public setting, say an English Corner, is also dicey. I did respond to one student at RenDa (People's University) one Friday evening several years ago on the issue of Taiwan, trying to frame the discussion diplomatically. It went well into one of the Party spies at these events shouted out something contemptuous of my talk. I proceeded to address his point directly, which most of the other students found amusing and interesting. If, however, I had raised any of these issues privately with one or two students outside of class, I would have been no worse for the wear.
I must admit that the Chinese--including most who are well educated--get very worked up and emotional over Taiwan. Part of this reaction is nationalistic (not really jingoistic) and the inevitable outcome of state media indoctrination. But what most in the Western press miss is that it is also a deeply felt issue of the Motherland--of reuniting what is perceived to have been fractured during the European colonial period, what with Hong Kong, the Shanghai, Qingdao, and Dalian concessions, the burning of the old Summer Palace in Beijing as a response to the Boxer Rebellion and so forth.
But to be direct: no, I would not have been fired unless I had persisted in this line of inquiry. And, after all, as a professor of EFL it is not my job to be raising such issues anyhow in class. Students are a captive audience and should be treated less provocatively, I believe, by guest faculty, which is essentially what I was. Neither would I have been publicly chastised or privately upbraided. Likely the dean of the department would express concern, not the waiban's office on campus. And the propaganda department would have nothing to do with it.
We talked about many controversial topics and at times students criticized their own government. But it is also considered taboo to assault the central government in Beijing, i.e., the Party's top leadership. Yet I could talk freely about topics during AVO (film) class to an extent I never could in most Western university classrooms today, given the PC mindset that has been imposed there.
As for religion, it is no longer taboo. Indeed, the new junior middle school English textbooks include a unit on Christmas, a passage about Christ, and another about Christianity. I know--I edited it. The senior middle school textbooks include several references to the major religions in various units. I had no qualms about raising religious symbolism when I spoke of Hawthorne or other writers in literature courses, either. And, refreshingly, we could discuss feminist perspectives without being strident in defense of the radical feminist agenda one must confront in Western academia.
All in all, however, there is a strong spirit of progress on these issues in Chinese academia and public forums do provide some opportunity for dissent to emerge. FTs are given more leeway, of course, than Chinese faculty but positon papers are routinely exchanged at the various think tanks which are no different than what one might find at the Hoover Institute or Brookings. That said, I must add the caveat that blunt criticism of the Standing Committee members is not permitted. But the consequences are no longer as rapid or as harsh as you might imagine. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| I simply could not justify teaching in such an oppressive society where women are second class citizens, ...and where I would be strongly discouraged from mentioning (much less celebrating) my cultural heritage or societal preferences. |
In terms of gender issues, yes China is much much better than some of the aformentioned counties.
But the underlined portion of your quote is where I see the hypocricy.
Try being a member of Faulong Gong or even the Vatican ran Catholic Church in China.
At least openly it's not going to happen.
Just because your own unique cultural and societal preferences were not hindered in China, it doesn't mean it's a considerable problem in that country.
You did notice that while in China certain things were block from the internet and media coverage? As a foreigner this is only a disturbance, but did you really talk to any citezens about how they felt?
When I was in Beijing this past spring I was talking to a local journalist at a coffee shop. He said there were major problems brewing in the countryside that the Western media has only seen small portions of.
I really think you failed to see the systemic problems there Steve while living the comfortable ex-pat wife. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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endo doubted:
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| I really think you failed to see the systemic problems there Steve while living the comfortable ex-pat wife. |
You meant to say 'life,' I hope.
I not only traveled in the countryside but lived there in the summer of 2000. I visited ten provinces during one job, and not only large cities. I had students from small towns and even villages. I lived in one of the poorest provinces in a semi-rural area for half a year with my Chinese wife, all the while residing in local standard housing. I've read alot and my wife has translated much and shared stories from both the Chinese Internet and her own familial connections. I have an American friend who now works for CRI who did a number of investigative pieces for NPR in the past year and he is nearly fluent in putonghua. Another friend has lived and reported freelance from there for more than two decades and worked with Kristoff and others from the NYT and BBC in the leadup to the Tiananmen Incident, as it were, and its immediate aftermath. In the south of China in Guangdong I visited a hotbed of unrest and kept pace with it via the South China Morning Post of Hong Kong which has reporters in the field there. So I was hardly sheltered or had need to have the wool pulled over my eyes like Yahoo execs who revealed the identity of a few Chinese dissidents recently or some joint venture business exec living in Shanghai or in Shunyi near the airport in Beijing.
The issue isn't whether I respect the government or believe the country should have a sound legal system and treat all its citizens well. To me therre is a vast difference between a place like Saudi Arabia and a place like China. You should be able to discern as much yourself without me defending my principled position ad nauseum. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ok Steve, I will make an argument that Sudan is the best place in the world to live, and Israelis really want to join hands with their Palestinian brothers and sisters. As long as things are improving, it's okay.
I agree that gendercide is not supported by the Chinese government, but it surely is supported by a large amount of their people. After all, who else is doing it? Or maybe it's one of those hypocritical practices (you are an expert on that one) where the Chin family does it but they look down on the Lee family next door if they do it.
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Ilsanman summarily declared:
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| When you took the stance that China is NOt a human rights disaster, you lost the argument right there. |
Ah, I see now. Well, yes, if you have determined that anything less than a wholesale admission that China is a human rights basketcase means that I've lost the debate, then I prostrate myself before you.
However, you're argument is about as subtle as that of your typical Korean drunk weaving down the sidewalk.
I acknowledged that the government--which I've repeatedly denigrated on this forum in other threads--has a poor record on human rights (although not as bad as some other nations).
BUT THAT IS BESIDE THE POINT
China has made great strides in human rights in the last two decades but still has a long way to go. Any China Hand will tell you the same.
It has clearly defined laws and regulations concerning infanticide and what you ingenuously lable gendercide. Those are enforced at the provincial level quite uniformly but at the district level in rural areas not so well.
Saudi Arabian law, on the other hand, is built on a modern interpretation of Sharia rule and the government makes no effort to codify laws which would elevate and protect the status of women from it.
My original point was that I wouldn't wish to work in a country where the government actively seeks to subject part of its populace.
Now go chew on your cud for awhile until this sinks in.
Ya-Ta Boy toyed:
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| Um, China is a seriously flawed dictatorship and you sold out for pretty low wages. You aren't just a hypocrit, you are a cheap one. |
You mean 'hypocrite,' don't you? Well la-dee-da boy, the fact that I was willing to work for a meager salary might rather suggest my sincere commitment to educational reform for anyone who isn't as cynical or dense as you are. Usually the accusation of "selling out" is reserved for those who reap the benefits of cozying up to dictators, sort of like the French and Russians did with Saddam Hussein and the latter (and India) are doing with Iran--and South Korea is doing with North Korea. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ilsanman insisted:
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| I agree that gendercide is not supported by the Chinese government, but it surely is supported by a large amount of their people. |
Glad you're seeing the light of day on the first point, but most Chinese in anonymous survey after another regard the practice with contempt as a feudal practice.
You mean "a considerable number of Chinese citizens"? |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Different words to mean the same thing, yes. Thanks for the English to English translation, buddy.
If Chinese people say it's a barbaric practice, then why does it keep happening? Who are these people who are commiting gendercide? Foreigners? Is it a big conspiracy?
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Ilsanman insisted:
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| I agree that gendercide is not supported by the Chinese government, but it surely is supported by a large amount of their people. |
Glad you're seeing the light of day on the first point, but most Chinese in anonymous survey after another regard the practice with contempt as a feudal practice.
You mean "a considerable number of Chinese citizens"? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Ilsanman asked:
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| If Chinese people say it's a barbaric practice, then why does it keep happening? Who are these people who are commiting gendercide? Foreigners? Is it a big conspiracy? |
Most do; some don't. Bribery leads to looking the other way. In some parts life is cheap. Many rural areas are remote and the word of the village or town Party leader holds sway. As the old Chinese saying goes: "The mountains are high and the emperor is far away."
But I will assert this much: in all my travels around Asia I've never found any place where girls are more likely to be favored or at least equally valued as in contemporary urban China, and this includes comparison to Korea. This said, the suicide rate among Chinese females from rural regions (ages 15 to 35) is the highest in the world.
When I become a father, I hope to have at least one daughter--partly to spoil but partly to be spoiled by. Of course, I'll expect her to also earn more of her way in the world as she grows and I'm sure my wife will remind her of the legacy of Mulan and her modern day heiresses. |
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