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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
but my point - (abrahamic) religions [are] fundamentally in opposition to all the ideas of scientific fact and civilized society - is valid, since the religions posit entities and states of affairs we know to be false, to say nothing of the gross indecency they endorse. |
You KNOW to be false? That's a pretty arrogant statement there, god-boy. There really is only one fact: YOU KNOW NOTHING. |
Gross indecency?
Well, at least I can't remember the Bible advocating drowning dogs in a lake. |
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. Genesis 4:8
Here are 743 other grossly indecent statements in your beloved book of hate. |
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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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yeah, lotsa time inthe old testament the nomad/shepherd/isolationist is the good guy while the townies are evil. a;most as if "stay away fromthe city" isan underlying theme.
the strong,silent myth didn't start with hollywood movies or end with the unibomber. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| There should be as many mosques in the U.S. as there are churches in Saudi Arabia. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
but my point - (abrahamic) religions [are] fundamentally in opposition to all the ideas of scientific fact and civilized society - is valid, since the religions posit entities and states of affairs we know to be false, to say nothing of the gross indecency they endorse. |
You KNOW to be false? That's a pretty arrogant statement there, god-boy. There really is only one fact: YOU KNOW NOTHING. |
Gross indecency?
Well, at least I can't remember the Bible advocating drowning dogs in a lake. |
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. Genesis 4:8
Here are 743 other grossly indecent statements in your beloved book of hate. |
Instead of your ridiculous "grossly indecent statements" BS, I just plugged in these words:
Love 703 times
Kindness
295 times
Grace
277 times
Mercy
467 times
Now, go *beep* yourself.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
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Muslim fundamentalists may reject the supremacy of any particular extant state today, but most long for the days of a caliphate,
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Too vague. Which fundamentalists? Which groups? How many makes up "most"? How is "[religio]fascism" any different from guerilla theocracy? |
Jihad international / Al Qaeda and the followers of Khomeni. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
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| Consider what happened on Aug. 14. Four jihadist suicide-bombers blew themselves up in two Iraqi villages, killing more than 500 Kurdish civilians � men, women and babies � who belonged to a tiny pre-Islamic sect known as the Yazidis. |
http://greenpagan.blogspot.com/2007/08/swift-boated-by-bin-laden.html
This was done not because of any military necessity but because Al Qaeda hated their religion. |
Yes, you said Al Qaeda hated their religion, but what is the religious sanction for killing women and children. I cannot recall the prophet Mohammed sanctioning that or the Quran either. There are no verses to back it up. It is simple sectarian hatred. It would be like Serbians killing Bosnian kids simply because they hate the fact that they are Muslim or a Muslim killing a Jewish kid, because he hates Jews. It has something to do with religious differences, not religious commandments. I think there is a difference. What happened to Yazidis is extremely horrible. I remember watching a documentary on CNN where a Sabean was horribly tortured, because he was Sabaen. The idiotic Iraqis who tortured probably didn't bother reading that the Quran praised the Sabeans as some of the first monotheists in the world. Al Qaeda is often motivated by religious differences. They are not exactly referencing the Quran and then carrying out their acts anymore than Jewish settlers are doing so when they burn olive trees.
As far as the other religions containing hatred such as the Old Testament, the ancient Hebrews were not saints. Some of them committed horrible acts. They were human beings. The Old Testament is a recording of the history of the Hebrews in a way, and it was not perfect. One can focus on the good or bad regarding the Old Testament.
Anyway, what are the various posters trying to prove? What positive is trying to be achieved here? The majority of people in this world follow some kind of spiritual belief. We can't force people to have one common religious affiliation. It won't happen. We have to be able to bridge the differences.. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Consider what happened on Aug. 14. Four jihadist suicide-bombers blew themselves up in two Iraqi villages, killing more than 500 Kurdish civilians � men, women and babies � who belonged to a tiny pre-Islamic sect known as the Yazidis. |
http://greenpagan.blogspot.com/2007/08/swift-boated-by-bin-laden.html
This was done not because of any military necessity but because Al Qaeda hated their religion. |
Yes, you said Al Qaeda hated their religion, but what is the religious sanction for killing women and children. I cannot recall the prophet Mohammed sanctioning that or the Quran either. There are no verses to back it up. It is simple sectarian hatred. It would be like Serbians killing Bosnian kids simply because they hate the fact that they are Muslim or a Muslim killing a Jewish kid, because he hates Jews. It has something to do with religious differences, not religious commandments. I think there is a difference. What happened to Yazidis is extremely horrible. I remember watching a documentary on CNN where a Sabean was horribly tortured, because he was Sabaen. The idiotic Iraqis who tortured probably didn't bother reading that the Quran praised the Sabeans as some of the first monotheists in the world. Al Qaeda is often motivated by religious differences. They are not exactly referencing the Quran and then carrying out their acts anymore than Jewish settlers are doing so when they burn olive trees.
As far as the other religions containing hatred such as the Old Testament, the ancient Hebrews were not saints. Some of them committed horrible acts. They were human beings. The Old Testament is a recording of the history of the Hebrews in a way, and it was not perfect. One can focus on the good or bad regarding the Old Testament.
Anyway, what are the various posters trying to prove? What positive is trying to be achieved here? The majority of people in this world follow some kind of spiritual belief. We can't force people to have one common religious affiliation. It won't happen. We have to be able to bridge the differences.. |
I don't blame the religion of Islam for Al Qaeda's acts. I blame Al Qaeda.
I don't know what other posters wish to show. I just want to show what groups the like Al Qaeda and Hezzbollah are about. What their religion is immaterial to me. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Justin Hale"]
| adventurer wrote: |
| ad again. I said it is fine to use the term fascist, but using a religious label before it runs into problems. |
I know. It offends Muslims.
[Adventurer: You think it is useful to offend? People fight, Justin, over ideas not over their DNA. If something offends one must look at the impact.
You said "As far as following a religion, you can (as in one is able to) interpret any religion literally" and my comments follow defensibly from that.
[Adventurer: Yes, but how do you know Al Qaeda's members are simply following their religion literally. If hundreds of children and women are killed because they are Yezidis there is no literal sanction for this. There is no religious precedence for it. Religious scholars don't sanction it, the Prophet Mohammed didn't do it, neither did his main general. If you are talking about slaying the pagans which the Quran mentions it was in reference to fighting adult pagan males who were fighting the Muslims in Arabia. That is different than killing pagan children. No scholar sanctions that.
The hundreds of comments urging Muslims to kill infidels are in direct contradiction.
[Adventuer: Killing infidels does not including killing children and women. It never has. The Muslims at the time of Mohammed never did so. They did slay adult pagan males in battle. The urge was for killing infidels who were battling Mohammed. Islam also has rules of conduct in war. You are thinking of the Quran when it says kill the pagans wherever you find them without mercy, but that is not in reference to killing women and children. Find me Islamic scholars who state that. Also, Sabaens, for example, are a protected people not to be slayed or harmed, but a Sabaean family fled to Iraq, because fanatics threatened them. I don't really think people are reading the Quran and interpreting things literally and then following some orders based on words. These are sectarian fascists and you are giving them too much credit in terms of following their religions literally. You do have a point, but you take it too far.
Muhammad's successor and close companion, Abu Bakr, in the form of ten rules for the Muslim army:[8]
� Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.
Justin, what is the thrust of my argument? Islam may not be my cup of Earl Grey or Assam tea anymore than Judaism may be yours or Christianity for that matter. General Petraeus in Iraq is using Sunni tribesmen to fight Al Qaeda. Obviously, distinguishing between Muslims is important in the fight against terrorism and fascism, and it includes winning friends. I would not equate Rabbi Lerner of Tikkun (taken from Tikkun Ha Olam in Hebrew) with the rabbi who inspires the Shas Party.
One is moderate, and the other is not. Are all Christians like Jerry Falwell? No. Yes, religious interpretations motive many people to do bad things, but so what? What does saying that get us which is what you seem to be saying. We all know that. We can't simply get rid of religions.
Back to your point about religions being completely against all scientific ideas, that is simply not true. Which religion opposes Newton's laws?
I don't know of any.
Justin, in your views, where do moderate Muslims fit into this picture.
What are you trying to accomplish with your views?
Thanks.. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
I don't blame the religion of Islam for Al Qaeda's acts. I blame Al Qaeda.
I don't know what other posters wish to show. I just want to show what groups the like Al Qaeda and Hezzbollah are about. What their religion is immaterial to me. |
That is because you are trying to be objective. Al Qaeda is a fascist organization that is more in touch with their ends, and they don't seem to care about the means. As far as Hezbollah, they are afraid of peace, they don't know how to deal with it. They are in an unusual situation, because 1)Israel is gone except from Shebaa which is either Syrian or Lebanese 2)Sunni support for Hezbollah has evaported in Lebanon and 20% of Shiites have moved away from them. The raison d'etre of Hezbollah its confronting of Israel. The Lebanese Government is not interested in it, and Hezbollah is undemocratic and wants a monopoly of power at the expense of the Christians, Sunnis, and Druze. It is not going to happen. I think Al Qaeda is worse than Hezbollah, though.
Hezbollah is resisting confronting Sunnis whereas Al Qaeda does not.
Two of the Shiite sheikhs are cautioning the leaders of Hezbollah.
I wish for the best for the Lebanese. Both Al Qaeda and Hezbollah do present different problems, but they are not quite the same at all. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
but my point - (abrahamic) religions [are] fundamentally in opposition to all the ideas of scientific fact and civilized society - is valid, since the religions posit entities and states of affairs we know to be false, to say nothing of the gross indecency they endorse. |
You KNOW to be false? That's a pretty arrogant statement there, god-boy. There really is only one fact: YOU KNOW NOTHING. |
Gross indecency?
Well, at least I can't remember the Bible advocating drowning dogs in a lake. |
That's a pretty sad "at least".
My main objection to the Bible, the Koran, etc. is that, if the Creator of the Universe had actually written a book, I would expect it to be a hell of a lot better -- ethically, factually, and stylistically. I mean, are we really supposed to believe that God designed bacteria, but couldn't take even a freakin' page to say "Hey guys, there are these tiny little things that can make you really sick, so wash your hands, OK? Oh, and if you get some in a cut, here's a hint: bread mold." Or: "You know, keeping other human beings chained up and using them as farm equipment is actually pretty mean."
It just doesn't add up. Some people read the Bible and are awed by what it is. I read the Bible and am puzzled by what it isn't. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
My main objection to the Bible, the Koran, etc. is that, if the Creator of the Universe had actually written a book, I would expect it to be a hell of a lot better -- ethically, factually, and stylistically. I mean, are we really supposed to believe that God designed bacteria, but couldn't take even a freakin' page to say "Hey guys, there are these tiny little things that can make you really sick, so wash your hands, OK? Oh, and if you get some in a cut, here's a hint: bread mold." Or: "You know, keeping other human beings chained up and using them as farm equipment is actually pretty mean."
It just doesn't add up. Some people read the Bible and are awed by what it is. I read the Bible and am puzzled by what it isn't. |
I guess that's why God got the job of being God and you didn't. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
but my point - (abrahamic) religions [are] fundamentally in opposition to all the ideas of scientific fact and civilized society - is valid, since the religions posit entities and states of affairs we know to be false, to say nothing of the gross indecency they endorse. |
You KNOW to be false? That's a pretty arrogant statement there, god-boy. There really is only one fact: YOU KNOW NOTHING. |
Gross indecency?
Well, at least I can't remember the Bible advocating drowning dogs in a lake. |
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. Genesis 4:8
Here are 743 other grossly indecent statements in your beloved book of hate. |
But that is not encouraged. Thats an example of what not to do.
I guess you think the Bible should be white-washed and full of bunnies and children laughing and playing. But this was life during the time of the OT: it was brutal and harsh.
Just so you know, I think you're the biggest friggin' tool on this site. Your criticisms of religion indict only your own sense of perspective. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
but my point - (abrahamic) religions [are] fundamentally in opposition to all the ideas of scientific fact and civilized society - is valid, since the religions posit entities and states of affairs we know to be false, to say nothing of the gross indecency they endorse. |
You KNOW to be false? That's a pretty arrogant statement there, god-boy. There really is only one fact: YOU KNOW NOTHING. |
Gross indecency?
Well, at least I can't remember the Bible advocating drowning dogs in a lake. |
That's a pretty sad "at least".
My main objection to the Bible, the Koran, etc. is that, if the Creator of the Universe had actually written a book, I would expect it to be a hell of a lot better -- ethically, factually, and stylistically. I mean, are we really supposed to believe that God designed bacteria, but couldn't take even a freakin' page to say "Hey guys, there are these tiny little things that can make you really sick, so wash your hands, OK? Oh, and if you get some in a cut, here's a hint: bread mold." Or: "You know, keeping other human beings chained up and using them as farm equipment is actually pretty mean."
It just doesn't add up. Some people read the Bible and are awed by what it is. I read the Bible and am puzzled by what it isn't. |
Wow! I didn't know you could read Hebrew, ancient Greek, or Aramaic. Congratulations.
I mean, because if you're reading the Bible in English, you're reading God's word in translation. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I mean, because if you're reading the Bible in English, you're reading God's word in translation. |
God doesn't speak English?
All those Christians who find hope and guidance in their English translations are obviously misguided. Poor souls. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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God speaks Jive. Like whatsherpuss from the Airplane movie.
"Dumbest brain I ever seen..." |
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