|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
curiousaboutkorea
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| There's also a difference among touching friends/family/etc., accidental/incidental touching like bumping on the subway, and grabbing strangers intentionally. In my book, 2 are okay, one isn't. I bet you can guess which ones are which. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Point well made curious. But, the adjoshi you discussed in this thread did not "grab" you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is interesting, though I haven't read through all of the pages. I'd like to add my recent experience with the "touching" phenomena that seems to pervade Korean men's minds.
Three days ago, my wife and I were downtown. We just finished eating at a newly opened Italian restaurant. It was nice. The price was good and they gave us a hearty portion. Anyways,
So we were walking to the taxi stand. Between us and the taxi stand were two older Korean men (about late 40s to early 50s) standing on the side of the curb staring at us from a distance of about 5 meters. I KNEW they were up to no good. I asked my wife to get closer to me and get on the other side of me. I was right.
Upon walking by them, one of them reaches out to grab my wife's arm. While doing so, he says in English, "you beauty-four". "I love you". "Help me". I immediately turn around and smacked that *beep*'s hand with my umbrella, looked at him, and said in Korean, "don't do it". He looked at me again and just continued with his buddy to walk down the road.
I loathe this country's tolerance of older men doing what they want without any severe repercusions, especially when it comes to sexual misconduct towards women. I don't care what any of you say, but that's inappropriate in my book and should I be so unfortunate to be in the same situation again, I'll do the same thing again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
curiousaboutkorea
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Just curious, cubanlord, is your wife Korean or also a foreigner? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| curiousaboutkorea wrote: |
| Just curious, cubanlord, is your wife Korean or also a foreigner? |
She's a foreigner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| smartwentcrazy wrote: |
| NYC_Gal wrote: |
| Banana_Man wrote: |
| My point was that people get touched all the time, whether by accident (elevator/bus) or concern (friendly walker aiding limping foreigner) or just curiosity - it's ok, heck i'm British and even I don't mind the ocassional pat on the back or helpful old guy toughing my arm. It's not the end of the world people. |
Occasional touches are fine. Constant manhandling is another. The term "Korea close" is very true. If I'm at the cashier at a mart and there's one person behind me, I don't want to feel them breathing on my neck. I don't want to feel their chest on my back. There's ample room. There is such a thing as personal space. Often, a touch is not the end of the world. Sometimes, though, it necessitates a trip to the hospital to see a dermatologist. It's because touching is so common, and some aspects of hygiene are often (but not always) lacking in Korea, that it can be a bit disgusting sometimes. |
You're saying that you're constantly 'manhandled' everywhere you go? Stop exaggerating. I've been here long enough to know that what you're implying is clearly blowing things out of proportion. I'm all for personal space, and the only instances where I felt my personal space was threatened was in a cramped subway train. It appears that you're just complaining just to complain.. If you don't like it so much, I suggest you buy a 1-way ticket back home. |
No I'm complaining here because SOMETIMES it's annoying. And you know what? If you were a petite girl with curves you'd be manhandled on a fairly regular basis. This is why I hardly wear skirts unless I've got shorts on underneath.
I'm all for respecting the culture, but when a culture is inviting loads of westerners, who they know have different views on physical touch, perhaps some concessions should be made. We sure as heck make them.
I had cramped subway trains in NYC and don't think that's so bad, but when I'm on a single-file line and the woman behind me has to press her entire front against my back even when I inch up to avoid it, I have a problem with that. It's not enough to make me go home, but it's enough to make me want to vent on an online forum with many (if not an overwhelming majority) like-minded people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jane
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I try to stay away from these kinds of threads, as they usually lead to nowhere in the end, but to the OP, I understand what happened to you. It was not cool. A lot of men on this board will never understand what foreign women have to live with here in Korea. One of these things is the aggressive behaviour from men (e.g. invading space, rubbing, ass touching, brushing, unabashedly staring at body parts, etc.).
Do not accept men (Korean or not) touching you in an unauthorized way. If it happens, give him the look of death. Maybe next time, another woman will be spared.
Oh, and to the male posters on this thread: there is no way you can really know what foreign women have to live with, so I'm not ripping on you guys. It's just you'd have no way of knowing the discomforts of women from middle-aged men in Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Banana_Man
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Location: Busan
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BoholDiver wrote: |
It could be a sign of unacceptance. Banmal between family can be a sign of acceptance into the circle and your role being defined. By being overly polite to you as a foreigner is unusual.
| Banana_Man wrote: |
| My wife's relatives - older or not, always use honorifics when speaking to me. One of them is repectably high in the government. They all earn well over 10mil per month - myy father-in-law is at 18mil and he is considered somewhat unsuccessful. As an ESL teacher earning 3mil per month I should be spoken to in banmal - I think so anyway, yet, no-one does - everyone is polite and respectful. |
|
It's not unusual just normal to be polite when in certain situations - when at casual dinners or just visiting they speak regularly to me - no ultra politeness.
However, if with others who do not know me, they speak highly to me and introduce very politely.
Again this is normal, for any culture - I speak well to my wife's father, as I would if her father was from the UK or US or anywhere because it's polite. My Korean family have treated me exactly the same as I would be expected to have been treated anywhere - no better, no less.
I cannot fathom how most people on Dave's have such a horrible time - what are they doing wrong? Everybody stares at them and ousts them from polite conversation. I was merely saying it doesn't happen to me - the only things that happen to me are normal things that have happened in every country i've ever been in. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jane
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I would like to make a final point.
In Korea, there are two kinds of touching.
The first is the lack of awareness, concern, like being brushed on a bus, or in an elevator. It happens everywhere in the world, but more so in places where more people share a smaller space. This is normal. I don't really care when it happens and don't think about it.
The second kind of touching is from perverted men. The OP had an experience of this kind. He touched her, when he knew it was unacceptable. Unfortunately, this type of touching has been normalized in Korea, and (particularly older) Korean men think it's okay to touch foreign women. Put it this way: They wouldn't dare touch a Korean woman the same way. Touch like that is not cultural, and it certainly isn't Korean culture. Some men touch all women regardless of Korean or not. I've seen Korean women have to put up with this crap too. It's not just for foreign women.
And on a side note, I always dismissed the perv touching thinking it was accidental, until my Korean husband pointed out that I was in fact, being perved on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Banana_Man
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Location: Busan
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jane wrote: |
The second kind of touching is from perverted men. The OP had an experience of this kind. He touched her, when he knew it was unacceptable. Unfortunately, this type of touching has been normalized in Korea, and (particularly older) Korean men think it's okay to touch foreign women. Put it this way: They wouldn't dare touch a Korean woman the same way. Touch like that is not cultural, and it certainly isn't Korean culture. Some men touch all women regardless of Korean or not. I've seen Korean women have to put up with this crap too. It's not just for foreign women.
|
Good^
Yes, there are some perverted old guys, but not all older Korean men are perverted. I was in London, saw a guy whack off. In Seoul saw a woman on the subway in only a bra - older woman. In France, saw attempted bus sex. This list goes on - people are perverted, a guy was done in the UK recently for bumming horses (well not that recently as I was there when it happened - over 3 years ago).
Anyway - my point - it's not Korean, it's not Korean people, it's not Korean culture - it's just the way of the world - people are perverted, look at what goes on daily in the world, it's a mess of perverted lunacy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Banana_Man wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
The second kind of touching is from perverted men. The OP had an experience of this kind. He touched her, when he knew it was unacceptable. Unfortunately, this type of touching has been normalized in Korea, and (particularly older) Korean men think it's okay to touch foreign women. Put it this way: They wouldn't dare touch a Korean woman the same way. Touch like that is not cultural, and it certainly isn't Korean culture. Some men touch all women regardless of Korean or not. I've seen Korean women have to put up with this crap too. It's not just for foreign women.
|
Good^
Yes, there are some perverted old guys, but not all older Korean men are perverted. I was in London, saw a guy whack off. In Seoul saw a woman on the subway in only a bra - older woman. In France, saw attempted bus sex. This list goes on - people are perverted, a guy was done in the UK recently for bumming horses (well not that recently as I was there when it happened - over 3 years ago).
Anyway - my point - it's not Korean, it's not Korean people, it's not Korean culture - it's just the way of the world - people are perverted, look at what goes on daily in the world, it's a mess of perverted lunacy. |
I've seen loads of pervs in every city, but was only manhandled a couple of times. Here, it happens on a fairly regular basis. I know brazilian jiu jitsu, though, so while disgusted, can wrist lock (without breaking it) if need be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jane wrote: |
I Unfortunately, this type of touching has been normalized in Korea, and (particularly older) Korean men think it's okay to touch foreign women. Put it this way: They wouldn't dare touch a Korean woman the same way. Touch like that is not cultural, and it certainly isn't Korean culture. Some men touch all women regardless of Korean or not. I've seen Korean women have to put up with this crap too. It's not just for foreign women.
. |
You just got through saying that they wouldn't dare to touch a Korean woman the same way...and then you say you've seen Korean women have to put up with this "crap" too and that it's not just for foreign women. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jane
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
I Unfortunately, this type of touching has been normalized in Korea, and (particularly older) Korean men think it's okay to touch foreign women. Put it this way: They wouldn't dare touch a Korean woman the same way. Touch like that is not cultural, and it certainly isn't Korean culture. Some men touch all women regardless of Korean or not. I've seen Korean women have to put up with this crap too. It's not just for foreign women.
. |
You just got through saying that they wouldn't dare to touch a Korean woman the same way...and then you say you've seen Korean women have to put up with this "crap" too and that it's not just for foreign women. |
I wasn't clear with my point. What I meant to say is the pervs will aggressively perv on foreign women more than Korean women. Nonetheless, Korean women get it a lot too, it's just done in a way that looks more 'accidental'.
It is much more frequent in Seoul than in any other city I've been to, to date. I think perv men attempt to touch women for two reason:
1. They have issues with not getting enough attention as a kid, student, employee, husband, etc. One way they spice up their life is by trying to see how much they can touch women, and get away with it[/i]. And usually they do, as Korean women will tend to let it go, and foreign women just don't know they are being molested, for lack of a better word.
2. In the case of foreign women, there may be a perception that we are easy, promiscuous, and that we won't mind being touched or stared at in a perving way.
I didn't want to go on and on about this topic, cuz I've laid out in my last two posts the reality of pervs in Seoul, and the reality that women have to face, Korean or non-Korean.
Once again, it is not [i]all men, Korean or not. It's a group of perverts who think it's okay to touch women against their will. Unfortunately, I believe this group is larger in Seoul than in other urban areas, as perving a regular occurrance, not an exception.
In fact, I would like to hear one chick on this board who doesn't regularly get negative attention, like perv touching and stares. I am interested to hear from some. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jane wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Jane wrote: |
I Unfortunately, this type of touching has been normalized in Korea, and (particularly older) Korean men think it's okay to touch foreign women. Put it this way: They wouldn't dare touch a Korean woman the same way. Touch like that is not cultural, and it certainly isn't Korean culture. Some men touch all women regardless of Korean or not. I've seen Korean women have to put up with this crap too. It's not just for foreign women.
. |
You just got through saying that they wouldn't dare to touch a Korean woman the same way...and then you say you've seen Korean women have to put up with this "crap" too and that it's not just for foreign women. |
I wasn't clear with my point. What I meant to say is the pervs will aggressively perv on foreign women more than Korean women. Nonetheless, Korean women get it a lot too, it's just done in a way that looks more 'accidental'.
It is much more frequent in Seoul than in any other city I've been to, to date. I think perv men attempt to touch women for two reason:
1. They have issues with not getting enough attention as a kid, student, employee, husband, etc. One way they spice up their life is by trying to see how much they can touch women, and get away with it[/i]. And usually they do, as Korean women will tend to let it go, and foreign women just don't know they are being molested, for lack of a better word.
2. In the case of foreign women, there may be a perception that we are easy, promiscuous, and that we won't mind being touched or stared at in a perving way.
I didn't want to go on and on about this topic, cuz I've laid out in my last two posts the reality of pervs in Seoul, and the reality that women have to face, Korean or non-Korean.
Once again, it is not [i]all men, Korean or not. It's a group of perverts who think it's okay to touch women against their will. Unfortunately, I believe this group is larger in Seoul than in other urban areas, as perving a regular occurrance, not an exception.
In fact, I would like to hear one chick on this board who doesn't regularly get negative attention, like perv touching and stares. I am interested to hear from some. |
I try to go to Seoul with my best friend because he's 6'3" with tattoos. People think he's my boyfriend, and don't mess with me. When alone, the stares don't bother me, and an accidental touch isn't the end of the world (unless I end up having to go to the dermatologist, as I did last week. Ugh!) but when someone squeezes (not an accidental brush) my butt I grab the hand and twist. Or if he "leans" into me from behind (and I can feel "it"), I make sure to "accidentally" elbow a crotch. I'm short enough that I can bend down a little to achieve this.
Sure, Tokyo is far worse with the perverts, but Korea isn't far behind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was under the impression that the OP was a man.
If she was a woman that changes everything.
In that case what a creep that guy was.
I'm so used to Korean men touching me (I'm a guy) so I was thinking that... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
