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Foreigner lays herself and some issues on the line
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yodanole

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:59 am Post subject:

I usually read all posts in a thread, even if they're long. I actually DID read further along enough to agree that the perspective of the students, parents and academy owners should be taken into account. But I don't like the people who have Korea "all figured out" in a relatively short time, especially when they start with egregious mistakes. At that time you have to question their insight into the situation.

yodanole

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:05 am Post subject:

It also annoys me when people misuse homonyms (homophones) and then complain about "grammar police".

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:04 am Post subject:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Yaya wrote:

I know of several people who just pulled a runner despite having no problems at their jobs. One even came back after a few months.

Considering the improved conditions in Korea's ESL industry, however, I'd think that runners aren't that responsible.

Same here, in my time in Korea I met quite a few people who ran out despite having a supporting employer and a good work environment.

Quitting a job is a basic right.

Living up to your obligations is also something thats part of life right?

The people I am talking about (and unposter is right in the sense that there are no hard stats on this) pulled a runner because of culture shock, not liking teaching and so on. Most of the people I am talking about did not even try to fix the issues or think of giving notice mostly because they were not 6months in country and would have had to pay back the airfare for example. By running they stick their co-workers with their bag of crap (it happened to me a couple of times and its no fun let me tell you).

No one will dispute the fact that the midnight run can be your only choice at some point if you are getting cheated badly. However, sweeping this into the "employers should know better" and thereby absolving those runners who run out of selfishness or all responsibility is wrong.

Two sides to the coin here or heck, this is a multi-faceted issue.

I am with you on this. I don't think it's that simple to quit a job if you signed a contract. It's a contract. It's not simply a job. It's selfish behavior. They shouldn't make you pay the recruiting fees.
However, if they paid your airfare, then you should pay that back and give them notice, and work to where you pay them back if you really don't like the country. Fair enough, Korea culturally can be rough for many folks, but is that the boss's fault? No. If your boss has been good to you, then you owe it to him or her to give notice. You can simply say you're not happy here and want to give notice. If the job sucks, then I am not gonna fault you. One guy I know never came back to a job I was at, but I didn't blame him. The job really sucked. He was lazy, though. He didn't think he should have to work like crazy, and I didn't blame him for leaving.

For me, someone leaving because of culture shock is being a wimp. The world isn't going to be Peoria, Illinois or Burlington, Ontario. Toughen up and meet your obligations and finish your contract or give notice.....If your job is horrible and the boss is horrible, exploiting you, and you want to stick it to them, then go for it.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:28 am Post subject:

repeatpete wrote:

The one strength which labour has always had is to withdraw it.
Saying this is 'wrong' or 'immoral' is daft.

Very true, and something people often forget. People here talk about the employment contract as if it were entered into by two equal parties. This is simply not the case, especially in Korea as foreigners.

1) Only the Korean version of the contract is legal. How many newbies can read and understand Hanguel? How many long-termers can decipher the technical parts?

2) If you feel the employer has broken the contract you must pay a lawyer to investigate it for you, spend time and more money filing with the labour board and then hope your employer doesn't use the system they understand much better than you to wiggle out of it. Or alternatively, just bribe someone or file for bankruptcy.

3) And speaking of bankcruptcy, if your employer does suddenly become insolvent he is within his rights to just not pay you effective...today. Or last month. Or whenever was the last time he paid you. No legal recourse for you. Which is even more scary when you consider...

4) Most teachers here are incredibly dependant on their employer. You could come home to find a new lock on your apartment. Or be rushed the hospital with an injury to find out your employer was pocketting your insurance contributions.

5) Your owner owns your visa. This prevents you from using the only real course of action you have, which is to walk away to find another job. The only other option is to leave the country. That is a reality the Korean market and immigration officials have made, not us.

And if your school does do any of these things you can always buy a ticket to Japan, buy another ticket back here to get a tourist visa, pay for a hotel while not working, hire an expensive lawyer to hopefully get PART of what you're owed...in a few months. Maybe.

It does amaze me how naive people can be. The hogwan owner is completely aware of how powerless we are and trust me, 95% of them aren't contemplating the moral reprucussions of not paying back pay. They will take any resignation as a personal insult and find any and every way to screw you over. There is absolutely no reason any one, in any country, should feel forced to stay in a situation they don't want to be in. People quit their jobs with no notice all the time back home, but we're supposed to feel sorry for the poor old hogwan owner who was just trying to earn a chun'on? Please.

And to the article itself; 3 teachers since last May, eh? Yeah, that's fishy. I worked at a not great hogwan back in the days where you could walk down the street in Seoul and get 5 offers (nevermind actually get a job back home) and only saw one guy run in a whole year. And you know, I never took it personally when I had to cover for him. Business is business.

crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:09 am Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

Unless things have taken a 180 since I took a previous employer to court about 7 years ago (I doubt the system would reverse), numbers (1) and (2) are false.

I only needed to present the labour board's ruling (which took about a week, if I recall) to the municipal court clerk. There was no formal trial and no need for a lawyer. The English version of the contract was used as the basis for the labor board ruling AND the clerk's award for damages in my favor.

The defendant is entitled to 2 'failure to appear" actions, and he exercised them. But I got my money in the end.

Considering number (3), I have no experience, but I'm willing to bet it's not entirely true either.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

1) Only the Korean version of the contract is legal. How many newbies can read and understand Hanguel? How many long-termers can decipher the technical parts?

2) If you feel the employer has broken the contract you must pay a lawyer to investigate it for you, spend time and more money filing with the labour board and then hope your employer doesn't use the system they understand much better than you to wiggle out of it. Or alternatively, just bribe someone or file for bankruptcy.

3) And speaking of bankcruptcy, if your employer does suddenly become insolvent he is within his rights to just not pay you effective...today. Or last month. Or whenever was the last time he paid you. No legal recourse for you. Which is even more scary when you consider...

4) Most teachers here are incredibly dependant on their employer. You could come home to find a new lock on your apartment. Or be rushed the hospital with an injury to find out your employer was pocketting your insurance contributions.

5) Your owner owns your visa. This prevents you from using the only real course of action you have, which is to walk away to find another job. The only other option is to leave the country. That is a reality the Korean market and immigration officials have made, not us.

And if your school does do any of these things you can always buy a ticket to Japan, buy another ticket back here to get a tourist visa, pay for a hotel while not working, hire an expensive lawyer to hopefully get PART of what you're owed...in a few months. Maybe.

It does amaze me how naive people can be. .

It IS amazing isn't it?

1. Untrue. Both are legal. Hakwon contracts usually say that the English version takes precedence over the Korean one while for public school ones it is the other way around. But the labor laws ultimately trump both regardless of the language they are written in.

2. Also false. You do not require a lawyer at all. Period. Been there, done that (twice).

3. Again false. You can put a lien on his possessions. The poster Young FRANKenstein was able to do this.

Quote:

Went to Labour several times. Twice with one school, and once with a uni. All three times, Labor ruled in my favour. Only the second time with the first douche required me to go further than Labor: I filed a lawsuit, won it, filed a lien, and got my money after his house was raided and his stuff was repo-ed and sold.

4. Usually the new lock thing or something like that doesn't happen until the 11th month or something like that. In which case a trip to the labor board is in order.

5. OR you could change your visa to a D-10 (looking for work...if memory serves me right) stay and look, find a job, go to Japan on the new employers dime and then you're set.

Even if you have to leave the country...you can still turn around and come right back in on the same day. Try doing that as a migrant worker in North America once your visa has expired or been cancelled. Korea is far far less restrictive in that regard.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=124214&highlight=lien

Oh as for bankruptcy...

Quote:

When unsecured creditors fail to find assets of the debtor to seize, they become suspicious that a debtor might have in fact registered the assets under a third party�s name and sometimes accuse the debtor of fraud. To prevent such problems, the Act on the Registration of Real Estate Under the Actual Titleholder�s Name and the Act on Real Name Financial Transactions and Guarantee of Secrecy were put into force; and an order to search property was introduced into the new Civil Execution Act.

And...

Quote:

Insolvency is the usual grounds for bankruptcy in both voluntary and involuntary petitions, whether it is experienced by an individual, a legal entity, or the estate of a decedent. Suspension of payments is also grounds for bankruptcy. �Suspension of payment� is defined as a subjective manifestation or action through which the debtor suspends repayment of all debts owed to all creditors (and not just some debt owed to some creditors in particular).

Note the last part of the last sentence. If he's paying his other bills (taxes, utilities or other creditors) he can't get out of not paying you by using "suspension of payments" as a method to declare bankruptcy.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/GILD/ConferenceMaterial/20191408/Korea%20CR3%20-%20Final%20Report%20%28Per%20LK%204-9%29.pdf

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

Quote:

And...

Quote:

1) I have also been there and done that and was told the Korean contract took precedence. It didn't matter in the end, but I was told this by several people at the labour board as well as a lawyer. I guess different information is out there. I'm sure we're both more comfortable believing what we were told by professionals than we are going with what some random person says on the internet, so let's agree that there's differing information out there on the matter.

2) Again, you claim this is false when all you did was take one small part of my point and say it's not true in all circumstances. True, you don't need a lawyer in every single case, but sometimes you do if only to clarify the issue. My point remains that it CAN be a long drawn expensive process. I never said it was in every case. Even without a lawyer, it is time consuming and expensive if you have to take off from work and run around to different agencies. So, if the employer feels we've done something wrong they can withhold our pay or do a myriad of other things (not saying it's legal, I'm saying this is what they CAN do). If we feel we've been wronged we can either go through this long and expensive process (all while still possibly being under the power of this employer) or we can simply leave.

3) Oh, well, you can put a lien on his possessions! Oh gosh then, I guess you'll have your money by the end of the week then, with no additional effort or resources from you! But I do stand corrected, and you're right. I guess there are some legal ways of going about getting your money. I guess I should have been more clear in that it would be a difficult, long and potentially expensive process. This happened to me in Canada and while, yeah, there were ways to go about it, it was very long, expensive and the possibility of me seeing a cent was almost nil. Imagine that in a foreign country. The point remains, the boss is just as able to do a 'midnight run' on us as we are on them, except most hogwans take a deposit and still owe some pay while we hold nothing over our employers.

4) The point about the lock is that it could happen, that your housing is almost always in the hands of your employer. And, actually, it does happen. It's a point about how much power the employer actually has, which goes to the greater point of not just the apartment, but how the foreign teacher depends on his employer for almost everything (at least in the first few years in Korea).

5) Still costs you loads of time and money, especially if you haven't been paid in a few months or got kicked out of your apartment. And then you're forced to take the first job offered and hope it doesn't happen again.

In the end, I wouldn't disagree with most of what you said, but then again you didn't actually counter anything I said (except for the contract language, on which I accept your position but also accept mine). The over-reaching point of my post was that as employees we only have the ability to withdraw our labour while the employer has much more power in the situation. Yes, of course there are legal avenues but if you explore them they take time, money and often much more of a headache than simply leaving the job. It's up to the individual to decide if it's worth it to fight it (or ignore it), but it's a silly starting point to believe we have just as much power in the relationship as the boss does. That is simply not the case and that's why unions were formed to begin with. I also don't know why you brought up other migrant workers in other countries (well, I do; as a strawman). My post was about employees everywhere, but specifically about foreigners in Korea. I never said we have it worse than anyone else-although of course it's harder as a foreigner in ANY country. You can chip away all you want, but you can't disprove the fact that our labour (and our ability to withdraw it) is really the only resource we have.

SojuQueen

Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Location: Land of the cold winters

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: Agree with the post

I think this post makes a good point about the irresponsible behavior of certain ESL teachers who pull midnight runs, for not apparent reason. Other than that they do not want to be in Korea anymore. M first six months in Korea were a nightmare, where our director purposely made two girls run before me because he decided that they only wanted to "hire couples" instead of "singles". Even though my conditions were horrible, I did not pull a midnight run, they anted me to run and instead I stayed and fulfilled my contract (getting slight ripped off in the process), but I still did not run. Why? because I had a contract to fulfill and also because I did not want to give the director the satisfaction. And in the end I won and got my release letter and found a wonderful school afterwards. This is not to say that I would have done the same if I was getting bad threats or kicked out of my house or if my pay was retained. These are more than legitimate reasons for doing a midnight run. What I think we have to understand is that the Korean Hagwon system in place was put in to put Koreans first and waygookins second. Koreans created a system (which is heavily corrupted) which is to benefit Koreans above all others. Even though we as ESL teachers get abused, just look at the other workers that come to Korea from other countries such as the Philippines, Bangladesh, Russia and how they get treated. We are accustomed to a higher standard of treatment by our employers and our society. So, if our employer breaks the contract or makes racist comments towards us we take it to the courts. This is the clash that happens most of the time between Hagwons and English teachers. Is it fair? no it's not. Having your pay given to you one week later because he/she "forgot" yet remembers every other detail is not fair at all. Constantly commenting about your weight and appearance behind your back is not fair either. But I think as English teachers we get superior treatment than other foreign workers, then again this is something that most Koreans resent us for anyway. So this is something that we have to consider that most people in the world do not get treated well by their employers. So even though you might get called fat or have your pay be three or four days late, suck it up spend your time and money wisely and then leave.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:07 am Post subject:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

[1) I have also been there and done that and was told the Korean contract took precedence. It didn't matter in the end, but I was told this by several people at the labour board as well as a lawyer. I guess different information is out there. I'm sure we're both more comfortable believing what we were told by professionals than we are going with what some random person says on the internet, so let's agree that there's differing information out there on the matter.

2) Again, you claim this is false when all you did was take one small part of my point and say it's not true in all circumstances. True, you don't need a lawyer in every single case, but sometimes you do if only to clarify the issue. My point remains that it CAN be a long drawn expensive process. I never said it was in every case. Even without a lawyer, it is time consuming and expensive if you have to take off from work and run around to different agencies. So, if the employer feels we've done something wrong they can withhold our pay or do a myriad of other things (not saying it's legal, I'm saying this is what they CAN do). If we feel we've been wronged we can either go through this long and expensive process (all while still possibly being under the power of this employer) or we can simply leave.

3) Oh, well, you can put a lien on his possessions! Oh gosh then, I guess you'll have your money by the end of the week then, with no additional effort or resources from you! But I do stand corrected, and you're right. I guess there are some legal ways of going about getting your money. I guess I should have been more clear in that it would be a difficult, long and potentially expensive process. This happened to me in Canada and while, yeah, there were ways to go about it, it was very long, expensive and the possibility of me seeing a cent was almost nil. Imagine that in a foreign country. The point remains, the boss is just as able to do a 'midnight run' on us as we are on them, except most hogwans take a deposit and still owe some pay while we hold nothing over our employers.

4) The point about the lock is that it could happen, that your housing is almost always in the hands of your employer. And, actually, it does happen. It's a point about how much power the employer actually has, which goes to the greater point of not just the apartment, but how the foreign teacher depends on his employer for almost everything (at least in the first few years in Korea).

5) Still costs you loads of time and money, especially if you haven't been paid in a few months or got kicked out of your apartment. And then you're forced to take the first job offered and hope it doesn't happen again.

In the end, I wouldn't disagree with most of what you said, but then again you didn't actually counter anything I said (except for the contract language, on which I accept your position but also accept mine). The over-reaching point of my post was that as employees we only have the ability to withdraw our labour while the employer has much more power in the situation. Yes, of course there are legal avenues but if you explore them they take time, money and often much more of a headache than simply leaving the job. It's up to the individual to decide if it's worth it to fight it (or ignore it), but it's a silly starting point to believe we have just as much power in the relationship as the boss does. That is simply not the case and that's why unions were formed to begin with. I also don't know why you brought up other migrant workers in other countries (well, I do; as a strawman). My post was about employees everywhere, but specifically about foreigners in Korea. I never said we have it worse than anyone else-although of course it's harder as a foreigner in ANY country. You can chip away all you want, but you can't disprove the fact that our labour (and our ability to withdraw it) is really the only resource we have.

1. Okay we can agree on number 1...but only if you agree that the labor laws trump anything in the contract. The Korean one may take precedence in certain cases but it STILL can't override the labor laws.

2. I was responding to the claim "you MUST hire a lawyer." (capitals mine). Those were your words and whether you intended to or not the impression you gave was that a lawyer IS needed in every case. Nor was I the only one who thought so.

3. Nice sarcasm...however you missed the point. You specifically claimed we had no legal recourse. I simply pointed out that was not true. Regardless of the cost and time it is there. And while it can be a drawn out and costly procedure...by the same token it doesn't have to be either.

4. Which is why you should change locks yourself soon after moving in...better yet find your own housing. You do have a point here however it's also fair to point out that the labor board takes a very dim view of such situations.

5. Changing to a D-10 doesn't cost that much time or money. Besides which if someone doesn't have 2-3 months wages as a MINIMUM reserve for cases just like this he or she shouldn't have left home in the first place. While most of my money is now home I keep a YEAR'S worth of wages in another Korean bank (other than the one it was orginally deposited in) for a reserve in case something happens. And one should never accept being not paid for a few months. Not even one month.

Also let's not forgot that we are on Dave's which is primarily composed of hardened vets who know the score...so as to speak. And I was responding to yet another overblown claim of yours that walking away was the only real course of action and that we couldn't even do that.

So yes I've countered at least three points of yours.

Specifically "you must pay a lawyer" No not for labor board claims. That's only if you go to court and generally only for claims over 20 million won.

"no legal recourse for you" if your boss doesn't pay you. The labor board and a lien are two possibilities that exist.

and that walking away to find another job is "the only real course of action you have" and we can't even do that because the boss owns our visa. Again the D-10 or a run to Japan can free us up.

But because I'm feeling generous I'll give you number 4. and agree to a draw on #1.

And no that remark about migrant workers back home was not a strawman. Just pointing out that no matter how restrictive the E-2 may be it's a bit rich to be moaning and complaining about it, when our home countries are even MORE restrictive.

Finally if you don't like the issues that come with being an E-2...then gain additional qualifications that let you qualify for a different visa (like the F-2-99 for example). Or do something else.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:01 am Post subject:

I thought I would add that my first hagwon closed shop in 2006, but I still got my salary, but only after going to the Labour Board. In my case, I got money even after someone's business folded.

strange_brew

Joined: 12 Oct 2008

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:09 am Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

I thought I would add that my first hagwon closed shop in 2006, but I still got my salary, but only after going to the Labour Board. In my case, I got money even after someone's business folded.

How long did it take?

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:25 am Post subject:

Quote:

The things is blackcat, employment contracts are not based on equality! Thats just not realistic. Employment contracts are there to detail the rights of the employee, his benefits and work conditions AND to detail the employees obligations towards his employer. This is bascially a means to normalize and formalize the work relationship.

Its not equal, never was and frankly never will be. It can however be FAIR as fair is not the same as equal.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:38 am Post subject:

Now Blackcat I will respond to your points (1 to 5)...

Quote:

1) Only the Korean version of the contract is legal. How many newbies can read and understand Hanguel? How many long-termers can decipher the technical parts?

This simply NOT true. Each copy of the contract holds legal value and in fact both copies need to be identical.

Quote:

2) If you feel the employer has broken the contract you must pay a lawyer to investigate it for you, spend time and more money filing with the labour board and then hope your employer doesn't use the system they understand much better than you to wiggle out of it. Or alternatively, just bribe someone or file for bankruptcy.

Untrue as the Labor Board does not charge you. You do need supporting documentation of course but thats pretty normal considering it would be a FORMAL AND LEGAL complaint.

Is this process easy and quick? Not always. It can be time consuming but then again find me ONE such procedure ANYWHERE that is quick, easy and pain free. It can cost you money to produce papers for example. However, as you are a free human being, you can always choose to leave the country and apply for a new job from abroad (yes this implies cost). No one is chaining up in some dank basement here....you have options and choices.

Quote:

3) And speaking of bankcruptcy, if your employer does suddenly become insolvent he is within his rights to just not pay you effective...today. Or last month. Or whenever was the last time he paid you. No legal recourse for you. Which is even more scary when you consider...

Untrue once again. You can file with the labor board and sometimes get your money. However, if your employer vanishes into the night, you may not get that money but what pray tell could prevent this?

Quote:

4) Most teachers here are incredibly dependant on their employer. You could come home to find a new lock on your apartment. Or be rushed the hospital with an injury to find out your employer was pocketting your insurance contributions.

Well, I do not know if you are aware of this but this is the case for most SPONSORED foreign workers the world over. Foreign workers NEED an employer to sponsor them or they get no work visa...period and not exclusive to Korea.

Accomodations are an employment BENEFIT and tied to the job..what do you want? An appartment paid for by your employer on which they have no right? Seriously, you CAN get a HOUSING ALLOWANCE and find your own place if you prefer more housing freedom.

Now for the key, SOME employers cheat their teachers, MANY more do not.

Quote:

5) Your owner owns your visa. This prevents you from using the only real course of action you have, which is to walk away to find another job. The only other option is to leave the country. That is a reality the Korean market and immigration officials have made, not us.

He is NOT your owner as you are NOT a slave. He is YOUR SPONSOR and the reason you were issued a WORK VISA in the first place. You CAN quit and find other work, leave the country at will so you are in no way, shape or form owned, that sort of rethoric is just sad.

I think that you need to sit back and try to grasp how foreign labor works my friend. You should try and honestly examine the processes and procedures for foreign workers in other nations. Amazingly you will find the word SPONSOR pops up all the time...you may also be shocked to learn that you are NOT a citizen of Korea and that as such you should not expect the same labor freedom a citizen does...just like a foreign worker in say Canada cannot do whatever he or she wishes and is on a sponsored visa on a determined time frame.

So lets drop the ole implied slavery drama and woe is us oppressed teachers rethoric because it helps no one and is a gross distortion of the actual reality and shows a pretty bad missunderstanding of what foreign workers are.

crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject:

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

This simply NOT true. Each copy of the contract holds legal value and in fact both copies need to be identical.

No. The English version is the primary legally binding document. The Korean version does not need to be identical, but doe have to contain the same basic parameters such as contract period, salary, etc. The Korean version is kept on file at immigration for their own purposes.

I managed a string of institutes for 4 years, so i dealt with contract issues on a weekly basis.

That being said, BlackCat is obviously just ranting without knowledge of how things actually work. I doubt that he has the experience he says he has, because I think there would be something else in his posting history that alludes to such a serious event happening to him.

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Mr. BlackCat wrote:

I'm not going to argue point by point on this, because I don't even think we're disagreeing that much. I made a post that basically outlined a commonly accepted fact that in a capital-labour relationship, the labour's only source of power is to withdraw. It's pretty much accepted in Capitalist, Socialist, Communist, everything-ist theory.

However, I will completely concede that I chose my language carelessly. I didn't mean to give the impression that you MUST hire a lawyer in every single case where you are wronged by an employer. I also was unclear in my description of brankcruptcy. In the future I will be more careful with my wording.

HOWEVER, this does not negate my overall point that in a employer-employee relationship, the ability to withdraw labour is the only real power the employee has. This is why most industrialized countries protect the right to strike. This is why unions were formed. I'm actually shocked that so many people here are interested in protecting the poor old businessman over their fellow workers, and how many are proud to have put up with utter BS in their lives and lost money just so they could brag about it here.

I do agree with you UM, Korean labour law trumps the contract. But how many newbies know that, and how many of them are familiar with that law? I was talking about newbies, which also keeps them from getting their own housing and having six months worth of salary saved. I've had jobs break labour laws in my home country and I was nervous to fight them simply because the benefit, if I saw it, would greatly outweigh the payment I would make in other areas at the job. Of course those were bad jobs with criminal owners, but what kind of people do you think draws the hogwan market (not all, but more than other fields)? If someone came here for 1 year and halfway through they weren't being paid or being abused, why on earth would they put themselves through all this instead of just cutting their losses and leaving?

And please stop trying to make this about how I'm complaining about Korea. I'm talking about employee-employer relations in general, but since we're in Korea I'm using this as an example. I've brought up my experiences in Canada, too. I'm not going to ignore the fact that our E2 visas restrict our employment options when that is exactly what the subject is about. I never even said it was wrong, I just said it was a reality. In the context of this discussion the plight of other migrant workers is just as relevant as the weather in Nepal. If the option existed to leave your current job and start at another one tomorrow, then I would advocate that if you're in a bad situation. But since it's not possible, your only other option is to leave the country.

Correction (told you I would be more careful with wording); you could also stay and risk everything to fight it. If you're still employed by them, you could risk your housing, your safety, your mental well-being and your job by fighting it. If you're fired, you could spend all your money on a flight to Japan, finding a new job (and maybe you just wanted to stay a year anyway), getting documents and going to the labour board (while you're supposed to be starting this new job). It's not impossible, obviously you were successful, but it's an individual's choice if doing all this is worth it to them. And since the majority of people who come here are still only here for 1-2 years, to many of them it is not.

Yes, of course you can stay and fight. But the system is slanted against you, as it is for every worker in every country ever in the history of the world. You have much more limited resources and time than your employer does, that is just a fact of life. And as a foreigner in a country (any foreigner in any country) you are already disadvantaged due to language boundaries and understanding of the law, not to mention connections.

Yes, I know we've been conditioned to feel sorry for the poor old millionaire or business owner through sensational news stories, but the truth is it usually takes a long time and a lot of resources to fight a wrong in the workplace (a good documentary sort of about this is Hot Coffee if you're interested). If your goal was to come here for a year just to try it out, why would you put yourself through that? So you can log into some message board in 5 years and tell everyone how you bravely worked under a psychopath with no pay just to prove a point? Most people would just want to get on with their lives.

And still, after all of this, if your employer has broken the contract then why would you still feel responsible for holding up your end of the agreement? I think the French have a word for that. I believe it's "Le Sucker".

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