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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Ok i'm going to stop quoting because these posts are getting absurdly long, butnin response to mr pink...
Never said i was just here to drink and pickp up women...but its true theres not much of those two going on together other than prostitutes. However, having a social life is important. If all someone cares about is money, they would be best off going to saudi arabia.
China is pretty boring. A ot of my students say their favorite drink is water, their favorite food is rice porrige, and they dont l ike traveling because x-country is dangerous. Ever seen the lonely island video for yolo? That sums up the attitude of a lot of people i meet here.
Still, the rents are high, even the ones you mentioned. Honestlymi'd rather be in a small officetel than a larger place in a rundown building like in beijing. The rents are going to continue to increase also be ause beijings population isnt done expanding. I dont think seoul suffers that problem as much. I also wonder what area you are in if you are paying 5000 for a huge three bedroom. Tat sounds like something youd find in the filthy suburbs...i should know because thats where i live!
Anyway, come to china ihf youre tired of korea, sure. Just remember the grass is always greener on the other side. Im sure id be fed up with korea if i went back for a few months.
And sorry for all the typos. I hate touchscreens. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:24 am Post subject: |
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A few similar things in both countries -
Not much respect for privacy. An unlocked door may as well be wide open.
Foreigners stand out, obviously, and learn the word for "foreigner" in their first week just walking around, up there as easiest word to learn along with hello and thanks. Exceptions maybe where foreigners are plentiful. It's likely you are talked of and that some people will know some things you thought were private enough. Nothing to be paranoid about. None of those people are paragons of morality. Gossip is normal.
'We are the center of the world' thinking common among locals. Strong nationalism. Feelings can be hurt just by saying you dislike something about the country.
Often you are a foreigner first and a person second. I guess this is an instantaneous thing people cannot help doing when they are not used to different sorts of people. They notice that immediately, just like your gender. You may be just a walking bunch of stereotypes.
Somewhat different:
In China it seems you can gain face by hanging around with a foreigner. Weird. In Korea often you don't want to be seen with one.
Chinese not as obsessed over how they look with all the make up and plastic surgery and so on. They still like a nice car though. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| joelove wrote: |
Somewhat different:
In China it seems you can gain face by hanging around with a foreigner. Weird. In Korea often you don't want to be seen with one.
Chinese not as obsessed over how they look with all the make up and plastic surgery and so on. They still like a nice car though. |
^  So true on both accounts.
Lots of good info being posted in this thread. It's apparent that in China, like Korea, some people will have widely varying experiences, naturally.
It's good to include specifics about location (which many have) when comparing the 2 instead of generalizing the countries, as China is much larger than Korea and things can be quite different from one large city to the next. It seemed to me that in Korea most places/things were pretty much one in the same (just my take).
As for the "grass is greener" comment above, it did end up literally being greener when I made the move from Seoul to Shanghai (bank account, green space, and overall quality of life). I've said it before that I enjoyed my time in Seoul (5 years) and wouldn't trade that experience, but Shanghai (year 3) is more preferable to me and I have no desire to live or work in Korea again. I get my Korean fix teaching and working with them here. |
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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I bet the water's green too. Just how many pigs did they fish out of the huangpu river? |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
| I bet the water's green too. Just how many pigs did they fish out of the huangpu river? |
Nice one. My school stopped serving chicken and pork (other than cubed Spam type meat probably imported from Korea). The wife and I continue to eat chicken and pork at home. I've yet to be infected and would wage everything that I won't be. Why not just go back to the environmental utopia of Korea if so worried about things in China? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| I have no desire to live or work in Korea again. I get my Korean fix teaching and working with them here. |
Looks like you got the best of both worlds.
I wonder though how much you'd enjoy China if you worked for a normal Chinese school rather than a high-paying Korean school. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
I wonder though how much you'd enjoy China if you worked for a normal Chinese school rather than a high-paying Korean school. |
Depending on the salary, probably more I'd guess. Chinese students are mostly easier to teach than their Korean counterparts. Of course, a lot more opportunities to teach adults in China, too, and adults that actually really want to learn English and have an interest in it. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| I wonder though how much you'd enjoy China if you worked for a normal Chinese school rather than a high-paying Korean school. |
That is a fair point; I'd probably not enjoy China as much if I didn't only work 8:30-4 M-F for a 190 day school year for 4.5mil krw per month (Korean school or not). The job plays a big part in one's perspective, but the overall picture of the place remains better here to me. I taught Chinese kids for a few months prior to my current job. As a whole they were more respectful and interested in learning something different. I'm used to Koreans though, so no worries. |
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markness
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorhaggar wrote: |
| markness wrote: |
| I too am on the fence with Korea and China. I have some friends in Korea (Koreans I met while I volunteered at university), but I am studying Mandarin at university, and I feel that it would help me survive on my own, whereas if I was in Korea, i'd be relying on my Korean friends because I don't know any Korean. Will China really be what Japan was in the 90s and what Korea was in the early 2000s? Im a young lad with no debt, so I think im leaning towards taking the risk as they say.. |
For what it's worth, basic Korean isn't THAT hard to learn...you can easily learn basic stuff for getting around, ordering in restaurants, asking where the bathroom is, etc. It's not a tonal language and the writing system is really easy to learn. Once you get to the point of making complete sentences it's definitely very complicated and difficult, though. |
Thanks for the heads up dude. I guess the advantage now is that since I've learned one Asian language (Chinese), I now know how to prepare myself to handle an another new language and how to study it effectively. I've also got a couple of Korean friends, and one of them I go out with regularly and she is able to teach me she said. I've got all the Hangul printed out for the alphabet so I guess we'll start from there and then learn the little other important phrases after that. Is it wierd that I am one of the few people who seem to want to go to Korea because i've got friends there?  |
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mayorhaggar
Joined: 01 Jan 2013
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| My deductions total nine per cent here. Yours there total 18 per cent. I'm rather surprised by that. China keeps that up and soon the jobs will be going back to America. Lol. But if the cost of living is still cheaper because of being a poorer country and no hassles sending money home, then maybe China wil be the wave of the future. I had seen an ad showing nice apartments in Beijing maybe for 4 or 5 K RMB. |
The way taxes work is you are taxed at a rate of about 20% (unless you make more than around 25k a month, then it goes up) but you are not taxed on the first 4800 RMB you make.
Considering most Chinese make less than 5000RMB a month, it is sort of a tax for the "rich" - but in reality for the middle class.
I pay 5000RMB a month for my apartment and it is a massive 3 bedroom. My first apartment here was 3500 for about the same size, but not nearly as nice.
| nukeday wrote: |
Living in Beijing, I make 16,000 RMB a month (no housing) and I'm saving less than I did when I was making 2.4 million won (with housing) in Seoul.
Lot's of reasons for this. Maybe I travel slightly more, but I definitely drink less (I work weekends now).
Taxes are higher in China, and you pay into a pension that isn't matched by your employer...and it's questionable whether you get the money back in the end. You also don't usually get a month's pay as an end of contract bonus.
Rent, in Beijing, to me seems to get you a lot less for the same amount of money than it does in Seoul. You might get a bigger place, but it'll tend to be in an older, more rundown building. My biggest expense, and the expense that irks me the most. There's also a lot of haggling you have to do - landlords and real estate agents often try to fleece "rich" foreigners.
The nightlife in Beijing (and other Chinese cities I've visited on vacation) gets stale really fast too. The Chinese mainly drink in restaurants so if you go to a bar you'll only see tourists or other foreigners - and pay tourist/foreigner prices. If you do see a group of Chinese people out they'll usually be in a really noisy nightclub playing dice. I have to admit I miss the Korean nightlife.
Anyway, as another poster often says, don't come to China if it's just for the money. It might be a lot less than you expect! |
Not everyone goes to where they work based on where they can drink and pick up women.
Beijing blows away Seoul when you look at: the class of foreigners there (not packed with ESL teachers), the types of food you can get and the price of the food you can get, the type of goods you want: Korea is still way too protectionist, the cost of living compared to Seoul is much cheaper in Beijing. It is 1RMB to take the subway...beat that in Seoul.
I will agree on being haggled on rent. I am in my 4th apartment and each time I have to do some heavy hitting on getting the price to drop. The apartments though are much much bigger than anything you would get in Korea for the price, and sometimes MUCH nicer. My current one has a 60 inch plasma tv, brand new - the other furnishings are awesome. It makes a difference. In Korea, I would have to buy all the furniture myself, and if my work was providing it for me, it most likely would be low quality stuff.
Food in China is cheaper on the whole than Korea, and while China does have some issues with food safety, if you know where to go you can get decent quality food without paying through the nose for it.
| byrddogs wrote: |
I'll tackle a few of the things mentioned in this thread recently.
Wiring money out isn't so easy. Laowai (waegooks) are only allowed a max of $500usd per day if they do it on their own. You can have a C national do it for you (not sure what the max is if there is one). I went with the wife a few months ago, and even though I'm married to a local the foreigner thing applied to me being able to wire above $500 that day. My wife had to wire the money (much more than the foreigner allowed amount) to my overseas account.
Taxes are a bit high here. There is a sliding scale based on salary. Foreigners are exempt from taxes on the first 4800rmb and there is an additional tax credit. It is explained here: http://www.expat-blog.com/en/guide/asia/china/827-tax-in-china.html I still pay way less in taxes than in my home country. China tried to implement that additional social insurance/pension tax mentioned by a poster above nationwide, but only a few localities are collecting it; Shanghai is not one of those at this time.
My apartment in a newer popular development that I chose where I wanted to live in Shanghai is way nicer and much, much larger than anything I lived in in Seoul (all places provided by employers there). The cost of monthly rent is similar. My current apt is 130sqm (1500 sqf) with 3 bedrooms and 2 full baths. I get a housing allowance of 5500rmb in addition to my salary that is not taxed. I use this to pay all my housing related bills.
The cost of living is somewhat similar in Shanghai and Seoul. If you want to live like you did back home, then you will pay for that. Going out to western restaurants and bars will certainly eat at your savings. If you live a little more local then you can save. My wife and I cook at home a lot, but we still eat out at western, Korean, other Asian and Chinese restaurants as well. We can find any vegetable or fruit here for reasonable prices, unlike Seoul. I can find practically any western cooking ingredient or food stuff that I want. I'm also able to find many more western products easily. Transportation is cheap and convenient, just like Seoul.
When it is all said and done, I am able to save quite a bit more here in Shanghai than I did in Seoul working in public schools at the top end of the pay scale while living much more comfortably. My salary is higher, I get a lot more time off and can choose my own housing. Keep in mind my job is probably not the norm for a teacher. It does give perspective for an experienced and qualified ESL teacher though. |
Agree with everything this guy says. To add about sending money yourself: you can get some official stamped paper from your work and then you are allowed to send a certain amount for the whole year. A colleague sold their apartment (yes they actually bought property here) and made a large profit. They had to have help sending the profits out of the country.
My work wires any portion of my pay I require sent to my home country. I love that fact: also THEY pay the fee on this side for wiring the money. In Korea I had to wire the money myself and I would pay the fee on both sides..
Why China over Korea? Honestly, I got a job opportunity here and I took it. I did Korea for 9 years and I wanted a change. It's been a few years now in China and I am thinking about moving on. The pollution is my number one complaint. It really shouldn't be a running joke with people that I can see a blue sky, what happened to the factories?
For savings, I guess I am saving okay, but I was saving okay in Korea too..
Also, the guy who mentioned pick pockets he was dead on. I personally haven't been a victim but I know at least 10 people that have had their cell phones picked out of their pockets or bags. iPhones and Galaxy products are huge targets for pick pockets. Also had a colleague who had her place broken into: they climbed the drain pipe and crawled into her bathroom window at night...others had their windows smashed and people broke in that way. I started to live on higher floors where that would be less likely to occur.
Anyways, China is different. In many ways its like Korea was in the 80s/90s, in others the people aren't as xenophobic and are a lot more open or apathetic to your presence. It is hard to describe to someone who has never worked here. |
But are those non ESL foriegners there stuck up? "You're just a dirty English teacher", type of stuff. Lol. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
| I bet the water's green too. Just how many pigs did they fish out of the huangpu river? |
Mmm, green water. St Paddy's day everyday.... Yee hoo!!! |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| My deductions total nine per cent here. Yours there total 18 per cent. I'm rather surprised by that. China keeps that up and soon the jobs will be going back to America. Lol. But if the cost of living is still cheaper because of being a poorer country and no hassles sending money home, then maybe China wil be the wave of the future. I had seen an ad showing nice apartments in Beijing maybe for 4 or 5 K RMB. |
The way taxes work is you are taxed at a rate of about 20% (unless you make more than around 25k a month, then it goes up) but you are not taxed on the first 4800 RMB you make.
Considering most Chinese make less than 5000RMB a month, it is sort of a tax for the "rich" - but in reality for the middle class.
I pay 5000RMB a month for my apartment and it is a massive 3 bedroom. My first apartment here was 3500 for about the same size, but not nearly as nice.
| nukeday wrote: |
Living in Beijing, I make 16,000 RMB a month (no housing) and I'm saving less than I did when I was making 2.4 million won (with housing) in Seoul.
Lot's of reasons for this. Maybe I travel slightly more, but I definitely drink less (I work weekends now).
Taxes are higher in China, and you pay into a pension that isn't matched by your employer...and it's questionable whether you get the money back in the end. You also don't usually get a month's pay as an end of contract bonus.
Rent, in Beijing, to me seems to get you a lot less for the same amount of money than it does in Seoul. You might get a bigger place, but it'll tend to be in an older, more rundown building. My biggest expense, and the expense that irks me the most. There's also a lot of haggling you have to do - landlords and real estate agents often try to fleece "rich" foreigners.
The nightlife in Beijing (and other Chinese cities I've visited on vacation) gets stale really fast too. The Chinese mainly drink in restaurants so if you go to a bar you'll only see tourists or other foreigners - and pay tourist/foreigner prices. If you do see a group of Chinese people out they'll usually be in a really noisy nightclub playing dice. I have to admit I miss the Korean nightlife.
Anyway, as another poster often says, don't come to China if it's just for the money. It might be a lot less than you expect! |
Not everyone goes to where they work based on where they can drink and pick up women.
Beijing blows away Seoul when you look at: the class of foreigners there (not packed with ESL teachers), the types of food you can get and the price of the food you can get, the type of goods you want: Korea is still way too protectionist, the cost of living compared to Seoul is much cheaper in Beijing. It is 1RMB to take the subway...beat that in Seoul.
I will agree on being haggled on rent. I am in my 4th apartment and each time I have to do some heavy hitting on getting the price to drop. The apartments though are much much bigger than anything you would get in Korea for the price, and sometimes MUCH nicer. My current one has a 60 inch plasma tv, brand new - the other furnishings are awesome. It makes a difference. In Korea, I would have to buy all the furniture myself, and if my work was providing it for me, it most likely would be low quality stuff.
Food in China is cheaper on the whole than Korea, and while China does have some issues with food safety, if you know where to go you can get decent quality food without paying through the nose for it.
| byrddogs wrote: |
I'll tackle a few of the things mentioned in this thread recently.
Wiring money out isn't so easy. Laowai (waegooks) are only allowed a max of $500usd per day if they do it on their own. You can have a C national do it for you (not sure what the max is if there is one). I went with the wife a few months ago, and even though I'm married to a local the foreigner thing applied to me being able to wire above $500 that day. My wife had to wire the money (much more than the foreigner allowed amount) to my overseas account.
Taxes are a bit high here. There is a sliding scale based on salary. Foreigners are exempt from taxes on the first 4800rmb and there is an additional tax credit. It is explained here: http://www.expat-blog.com/en/guide/asia/china/827-tax-in-china.html I still pay way less in taxes than in my home country. China tried to implement that additional social insurance/pension tax mentioned by a poster above nationwide, but only a few localities are collecting it; Shanghai is not one of those at this time.
My apartment in a newer popular development that I chose where I wanted to live in Shanghai is way nicer and much, much larger than anything I lived in in Seoul (all places provided by employers there). The cost of monthly rent is similar. My current apt is 130sqm (1500 sqf) with 3 bedrooms and 2 full baths. I get a housing allowance of 5500rmb in addition to my salary that is not taxed. I use this to pay all my housing related bills.
The cost of living is somewhat similar in Shanghai and Seoul. If you want to live like you did back home, then you will pay for that. Going out to western restaurants and bars will certainly eat at your savings. If you live a little more local then you can save. My wife and I cook at home a lot, but we still eat out at western, Korean, other Asian and Chinese restaurants as well. We can find any vegetable or fruit here for reasonable prices, unlike Seoul. I can find practically any western cooking ingredient or food stuff that I want. I'm also able to find many more western products easily. Transportation is cheap and convenient, just like Seoul.
When it is all said and done, I am able to save quite a bit more here in Shanghai than I did in Seoul working in public schools at the top end of the pay scale while living much more comfortably. My salary is higher, I get a lot more time off and can choose my own housing. Keep in mind my job is probably not the norm for a teacher. It does give perspective for an experienced and qualified ESL teacher though. |
Agree with everything this guy says. To add about sending money yourself: you can get some official stamped paper from your work and then you are allowed to send a certain amount for the whole year. A colleague sold their apartment (yes they actually bought property here) and made a large profit. They had to have help sending the profits out of the country.
My work wires any portion of my pay I require sent to my home country. I love that fact: also THEY pay the fee on this side for wiring the money. In Korea I had to wire the money myself and I would pay the fee on both sides..
Why China over Korea? Honestly, I got a job opportunity here and I took it. I did Korea for 9 years and I wanted a change. It's been a few years now in China and I am thinking about moving on. The pollution is my number one complaint. It really shouldn't be a running joke with people that I can see a blue sky, what happened to the factories?
For savings, I guess I am saving okay, but I was saving okay in Korea too..
Also, the guy who mentioned pick pockets he was dead on. I personally haven't been a victim but I know at least 10 people that have had their cell phones picked out of their pockets or bags. iPhones and Galaxy products are huge targets for pick pockets. Also had a colleague who had her place broken into: they climbed the drain pipe and crawled into her bathroom window at night...others had their windows smashed and people broke in that way. I started to live on higher floors where that would be less likely to occur.
Anyways, China is different. In many ways its like Korea was in the 80s/90s, in others the people aren't as xenophobic and are a lot more open or apathetic to your presence. It is hard to describe to someone who has never worked here. |
But are those non ESL foriegners there stuck up? "You're just a dirty English teacher", type of stuff. Lol. |
Not at all. Overall expats in China just seem to be a lot more chill then those in Korea. It could be the vast amount of European and South American expats here.
Trying to compare China to Korea is hard though: Korea has 45mil people. I am pretty sure there are that many people if you took just Beijing and Shanghai and added them together. The economic opportunities in China blow away Korea and is really hard to grasp unless you spend some serious time in China.
So there are A LOT of expats here and the majority are NOT in ESL. I am not in ESL, but I don't look down on those that are. There are some fantastic jobs for people who do ESL here and fantastic money to be had.
In response to the other guy's question:
I live in Tianjin, not Beijing. And 5000 is a lot considering 4 years ago I had a bigger place for 3500. You are right, the rents WILL get higher and higher. BUT the value of the RMB will get stronger and stronger. I have stopped sending money back home as the cdn dollar isn't going to be worth what the RMB will be a year or two from now. I'd love to make an extra 10-20k on exchanging my money later rather than now. |
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markness
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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So what I've grasped from this thread is that Korea is better in terms of entry level savings potential. However, if one were to network, it is possible to do better in China, but browsing their job boards, the typical jobs are pretty "meh", unless you get into an international school or develop some sort of business. The only way people do well in regards to finances is with getting lower hours in China is by tutoring for extra cash, but that is kind of a pain (personal experiences).
If one were to not go to a country for mercenary purposes and say they were a younger gentleman (no psy pun intended), can it be said that Korea would be a funner place to live? I spent time in China and it wasn't bad, but it was hard to go out and have a good time as everyone had a girlfriend (so did I but I still went out) or was married. I understand such a phenomenon would occur in Korea as well but which place is funner to live? |
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markness
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
Ok i'm going to stop quoting because these posts are getting absurdly long, butnin response to mr pink...
Never said i was just here to drink and pickp up women...but its true theres not much of those two going on together other than prostitutes. However, having a social life is important. If all someone cares about is money, they would be best off going to saudi arabia.
China is pretty boring. A ot of my students say their favorite drink is water, their favorite food is rice porrige, and they dont l ike traveling because x-country is dangerous. Ever seen the lonely island video for yolo? That sums up the attitude of a lot of people i meet here.
Still, the rents are high, even the ones you mentioned. Honestlymi'd rather be in a small officetel than a larger place in a rundown building like in beijing. The rents are going to continue to increase also be ause beijings population isnt done expanding. I dont think seoul suffers that problem as much. I also wonder what area you are in if you are paying 5000 for a huge three bedroom. Tat sounds like something youd find in the filthy suburbs...i should know because thats where i live!
Anyway, come to china ihf youre tired of korea, sure. Just remember the grass is always greener on the other side. Im sure id be fed up with korea if i went back for a few months.
And sorry for all the typos. I hate touchscreens. |
You kind of answered my question, I should have read more. And yeah, China seems more dull (from what I've heard from people who've lived from Seoul in compassion), this makes me want to give Seoul a try. |
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