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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
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Yeah, I see your point and definitely agree; If one focuses on certain things they get a different perspective and experience.
I've known a few here that get obsessive like that and always seem to notice every little detail, like being stared at, mean-mugged or talked about by the next table.
I just want to eat my meal and go about my day, so I don't focus on those things, but who am I to say they don't happen just because I didn't notice?
Actually, most times I do notice it, as I always check my environment out of habit, but I don't worry about it as much.
But if the guy noticed 5 tables staring at us with our dates, and I didn't, I'm not going to tell the guy "I didn't see it, you must be exaggerating!"
Which is what some on here like to try to use as some kind of trump card.
... Just because I didn't notice it or care either way, doesn't mean the other guy is wrong in his observation, but certainly his focus, experience and perspective is different.
Which perspective is closer to the real situation? As usual the truth is probably somewhere in between the two. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| McQwaid wrote: |
I've had interesting experiences with the age/respect culture for Koreans.
I worked for the Korean International School in Hong Kong and when we went on a school trip to the jungles of Borneo this cultural age thing actually became a dangerous situation for us teachers. The student respect for the oldest Korean male trumped the respect and authority of the non-Korean teacher. And safety was the last thing on this Korean teen's mind.
The oldest Korean in the group was also the most difficult to organize. But his Korean peers HAD to follow him and his plans, even more so than the teachers. Even the Hong Kong Chinese kids were intimidated by this.
One Korean kid, who was kind of a loner and more mature and much larger than his Older Korean peers ( high school) did not want anything to do with the age/respect thing on the grounds that he and them were not in Korea.
Well, that did not go over well at all. The elder teen physically challenged him and was quickly overwhelmed with the younger Korean's size. I broke it up and told them that we are not in Korea and you have to respect his choices. They screamed "he would be killed in Korea for this" and demanded that I stay out of it because I was not Korean. It was intense. The Hong Kong Chinese students ( the school body was about half Korean and half Chinese students) were really surprised because the Korean students did not do the Agism thing in school. The jungle was a different story though.
Later that night, I stepped out of the camp cabins to find the rebellious teen, shirtless, repetively bowing on his knees in the mud and rain, apologizing in a chant to his elder Korean, who was standing over him as everyone watched.
We, the teachers, broke it up as if some sort of satanic ritual was going on. Some of the international student females were crying.
As an international teacher it was quite the predicament. But this underscores the importance of Agism in Korean Culture AMUNGST KOREANS. |
Wow, what a story. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
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Yeah, I see your point and definitely agree; If one focuses on certain things they get a different perspective and experience.
I've known a few here that get obsessive like that and always seem to notice every little detail, like being stared at, mean-mugged or talked about by the next table.
I just want to eat my meal and go about my day, so I don't focus on those things, but who am I to say they don't happen just because I didn't notice?
Actually, most times I do notice it, as I always check my environment out of habit, but I don't worry about it as much.
But if the guy noticed 5 tables staring at us with our dates, and I didn't, I'm not going to tell the guy "I didn't see it, you must be exaggerating!"
Which is what some on here like to try to use as some kind of trump card.
... Just because I didn't notice it or care either way, doesn't mean the other guy is wrong in his observation, but certainly his focus, experience and perspective is different.
Which perspective is closer to the real situation? As usual the truth is probably somewhere in between the two. |
Totally agree. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. And of course, few of us are completely on one side... we flow back and forth depending. For me, with the summer heat, my nerves have been a tad on edge.
BUT, I do think we control how we react. And that reaction, can often make the difference between having a great meal/workout, or paying out bloodmoney. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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I remember meeting a Mongolian University student one time, and he commented about it. He said before he came to Korea he understood the age thing, since it is a pan-Asian thing, but to varying degrees. In Mongolia anyone within 3-ish years of your age can be considered your equal. This guy was kind of taken-back that it's one measly year that separates you from being a close friend to being a 'younger'/'older' friend.
It's especially rigid in the teen years in Korea and until you complete your military service. But becomes much fuzzier the older you get in Korea. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| The age-respect thing is applied to older foreigners. However, it requires that the FT also show a certain level of respect for local culture...funny how that works. |
Right... because just walking down the street, eating at a restaurant, teaching a class, or not knowing the language perfectly is somehow showing disrespect for the local culture.
Plenty of them have a fundamental rivalry against and disrespect for foreigners in general. Respecting the local culture or language can win some of them over but others won't care what you do or don't do.
| Quote: |
| Now scorpion...your experience seems to be extreme and also highly personnal |
Is it though? Maybe your experience is the extreme. Or maybe you look really old.
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much.
I've heard plenty of stories like his. A few years ago at a job, we did several sessions of workshops with hundreds of foreign teachers, and one thing that surprised me was how uniform their responses were regarding stuff like this and the lack of respect they felt in general. Meh, must have been all their fault...
Granted, not many had grey hair, but is that what it takes for a foreigner to get respect? He has to be old?
Heck, even knowing perfect Korean doesn't do it; some of the worst whiners I know here have amazing Korean skills and they say they get dissed quite frequently, often harping on about how a Korean would never address another Korean like that.
That said, I think it's overblown to suggest that these things happen every day, but they must happen often enough, or else why would anyone mention it? It's enough to be a pattern anyway, even if it doesn't happen to everyone or even if some don't notice it while others do.
Also, haven't you been away for a very long time now? People usually tend to forget or block out the bad stuff over time. It only makes sense. Whenever I leave Korea, I always forget the bumping and whatever other annoyances there are there, since it's not a big issue. But if you're actually there and it's happening on a regular basis, that's different. |
When did I mention a need to speak perfect Korean? Let me clue you in: never.
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And now "let me clue you in": I brought the language issue up on my own accord.
Whether you mentioned it or not is irrelevant.
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I said showing some respect for the local culture and you went off....oh well.
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Yeah, "oh well."
If you have no counter point to it that's fine, but my point was that often the disrespect here can come regardless of whether the visitor shows respect for the culture or not, and in many contexts the locals often have no idea what the visitor thinks of their culture either way.
So, a teacher here could learn perfect Korean, learn Korean history and abide by all the customs, eat Korean food everyday, and he can still get almost the same amount of disrespect from random Koreans as the newbie who scorns the local culture. It's almost irrelevant in many cases.
As for student behavior, it's true that a foreign teacher/professor can get plenty of respect if they demand it or have good class management, but all things being equal, the Korean adult will still get more respect on average than the foreign one, or will have to do a lot less to get the same respect.
If people here think Koreans respect them in general, that's great. I won't disagree because it's case by case.
But... if they think that they are afforded the SAME respect and same type of respect that other Koreans tend to get, then that's debatable. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
|
Yeah, I see your point and definitely agree; If one focuses on certain things they get a different perspective and experience.
I've known a few here that get obsessive like that and always seem to notice every little detail, like being stared at, mean-mugged or talked about by the next table.
I just want to eat my meal and go about my day, so I don't focus on those things, but who am I to say they don't happen just because I didn't notice?
Actually, most times I do notice it, as I always check my environment out of habit, but I don't worry about it as much.
But if the guy noticed 5 tables staring at us with our dates, and I didn't, I'm not going to tell the guy "I didn't see it, you must be exaggerating!"
Which is what some on here like to try to use as some kind of trump card.
... Just because I didn't notice it or care either way, doesn't mean the other guy is wrong in his observation, but certainly his focus, experience and perspective is different.
Which perspective is closer to the real situation? As usual the truth is probably somewhere in between the two. |
Totally agree. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. And of course, few of us are completely on one side... we flow back and forth depending. |
Absolutely. I change by the hour practically. And the summer humidity isn't helping.  |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| The age-respect thing is applied to older foreigners. However, it requires that the FT also show a certain level of respect for local culture...funny how that works. |
Right... because just walking down the street, eating at a restaurant, teaching a class, or not knowing the language perfectly is somehow showing disrespect for the local culture.
Plenty of them have a fundamental rivalry against and disrespect for foreigners in general. Respecting the local culture or language can win some of them over but others won't care what you do or don't do.
| Quote: |
| Now scorpion...your experience seems to be extreme and also highly personnal |
Is it though? Maybe your experience is the extreme. Or maybe you look really old.
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much.
I've heard plenty of stories like his. A few years ago at a job, we did several sessions of workshops with hundreds of foreign teachers, and one thing that surprised me was how uniform their responses were regarding stuff like this and the lack of respect they felt in general. Meh, must have been all their fault...
Granted, not many had grey hair, but is that what it takes for a foreigner to get respect? He has to be old?
Heck, even knowing perfect Korean doesn't do it; some of the worst whiners I know here have amazing Korean skills and they say they get dissed quite frequently, often harping on about how a Korean would never address another Korean like that.
That said, I think it's overblown to suggest that these things happen every day, but they must happen often enough, or else why would anyone mention it? It's enough to be a pattern anyway, even if it doesn't happen to everyone or even if some don't notice it while others do.
Also, haven't you been away for a very long time now? People usually tend to forget or block out the bad stuff over time. It only makes sense. Whenever I leave Korea, I always forget the bumping and whatever other annoyances there are there, since it's not a big issue. But if you're actually there and it's happening on a regular basis, that's different. |
When did I mention a need to speak perfect Korean? Let me clue you in: never.
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And now "let me clue you in": I brought the language issue up on my own accord.
Whether you mentioned it or not is irrelevant.
| Quote: |
I said showing some respect for the local culture and you went off....oh well.
|
Yeah, "oh well."
If you have no counter point to it that's fine, but my point was that often the disrespect here can come regardless of whether the visitor shows respect for the culture or not, and in many contexts the locals often have no idea what the visitor thinks of their culture either way.
So, a teacher here could learn perfect Korean, learn Korean history and abide by all the customs, eat Korean food everyday, and he can still get almost the same amount of disrespect from random Koreans as the newbie who scorns the local culture. It's almost irrelevant in many cases.
As for student behavior, it's true that a foreign teacher/professor can get plenty of respect if they demand it or have good class management, but all things being equal, the Korean adult will still get more respect on average than the foreign one, or will have to do a lot less to get the same respect.
If people here think Koreans respect them in general, that's great. I won't disagree because it's case by case.
But... if they think that they are afforded the SAME respect and same type of respect that other Koreans tend to get, then that's debatable. |
My point was well made, yours is now clearer.
We have a similar view with some differences, no worries.
As we all know there are a-holes everywhere and they tend not to show others much respect. This happens in Korea for sure. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
|
Yeah, I see your point and definitely agree; If one focuses on certain things they get a different perspective and experience.
I've known a few here that get obsessive like that and always seem to notice every little detail, like being stared at, mean-mugged or talked about by the next table.
I just want to eat my meal and go about my day, so I don't focus on those things, but who am I to say they don't happen just because I didn't notice?
Actually, most times I do notice it, as I always check my environment out of habit, but I don't worry about it as much.
But if the guy noticed 5 tables staring at us with our dates, and I didn't, I'm not going to tell the guy "I didn't see it, you must be exaggerating!"
Which is what some on here like to try to use as some kind of trump card.
... Just because I didn't notice it or care either way, doesn't mean the other guy is wrong in his observation, but certainly his focus, experience and perspective is different.
Which perspective is closer to the real situation? As usual the truth is probably somewhere in between the two. |
Totally agree. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle. And of course, few of us are completely on one side... we flow back and forth depending. For me, with the summer heat, my nerves have been a tad on edge.
BUT, I do think we control how we react. And that reaction, can often make the difference between having a great meal/workout, or paying out bloodmoney. |
Is this heat, along with the new 26 to 28 degree rule (un-insulated buildings being feeling more like 28 to 30), making you more irritable than in the past? Cause, lately, I feel like I am on more of a short fuse than I've ever been before (in summers past) and I wonder if it's just me. This heat is bloody hell! Thank goodness I'm flying out early next week to the great white north.  |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Last summer I was living at my in-laws. And while that has its own stressors, I felt cooler and calmer (it's abit outside of the city). My apt that I'm in now is HOT. It's usually 2 degrees warmer than outside. As an example, in one year we turn on the heat maybe once or twice... for an hour, all winter! It's a hot place.
So, I've been a sufferin' |
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