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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
Don't be obtuse. If you've initiated force on others in the process of achieving success, yes, you should be punished. If you're a company that has achieved success by mutually beneficial exchange, no, you shouldn't. |
What if you initiated force on those who were attempting to initiate force on you? What if its a dog eat dog world out there and everyone is looking out for themselves?
| atwood wrote: |
| Starbucks built its brand on exactly the qualities I mentioned and that's how it earned its status, which is real and not "perceived." |
Starbucks may have built its brand on those qualities. Starbucks continues to flourish in large part based on name recognition and status.
Change the logos and keep everything else the same and drop it down in the middle of somewhere and the results may or may not be the same, depending on location. It may do well, it may blend in, it may fold in 6 months. Heck, in certain neighborhoods it might do better because its NOT Starbucks. Or it might do worse because it doesn't have the Starbucks name.
I doubt most people would tell the difference in the taste of their coffee. Half the drinks sold are already full of whipped cream and chocolate anyways. I don't think there would be any magical difference in the store atmosphere. A large coffee house is a large coffee house.
The point is that location and brand recognition have way more to do with the success of large chain coffee houses like Starbucks, Tom-N-Toms, Holly's, Caffe Pascucci, Caffe Bene, Angel-In-Us, Coffe Bean and Tea Leaf, Ediya, etc.
This notion that Starbucks is doing something magical that other coffee chains can't tolerate and are thus trying to squeeze them out is a farce.
Not to mention the whole "anti-foreigner" assumption. Guess what? Most of those stores are owned by Korean "Restaurant Group" companies that open up a variety of stores around the country. Most of the rest are owned by Korean franchisees- small business owners.
Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if half the angst over this is people tired of having to socialize by spending 5 dollars on some coffee drink, either with their friends who they can barely stand or some skirt they're chasing who is eating up the funds. I sympathize, I'm in the first group and I ain't too proud to admit I've spent time before in the second.
| Quote: |
| Why do so many of you care about a rich multinational's money problems? |
Because the rich multinational exists to make them happy. It is failing to do so. Therefore it is guilty of some great ill. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| cdninkorea wrote: |
Don't be obtuse. If you've initiated force on others in the process of achieving success, yes, you should be punished. If you're a company that has achieved success by mutually beneficial exchange, no, you shouldn't. |
What if you initiated force on those who were attempting to initiate force on you? What if its a dog eat dog world out there and everyone is looking out for themselves?
| atwood wrote: |
| Starbucks built its brand on exactly the qualities I mentioned and that's how it earned its status, which is real and not "perceived." |
Starbucks may have built its brand on those qualities. Starbucks continues to flourish in large part based on name recognition and status.
Change the logos and keep everything else the same and drop it down in the middle of somewhere and the results may or may not be the same, depending on location. It may do well, it may blend in, it may fold in 6 months. Heck, in certain neighborhoods it might do better because its NOT Starbucks. Or it might do worse because it doesn't have the Starbucks name.
I doubt most people would tell the difference in the taste of their coffee. Half the drinks sold are already full of whipped cream and chocolate anyways. I don't think there would be any magical difference in the store atmosphere. A large coffee house is a large coffee house.
The point is that location and brand recognition have way more to do with the success of large chain coffee houses like Starbucks, Tom-N-Toms, Holly's, Caffe Pascucci, Caffe Bene, Angel-In-Us, Coffe Bean and Tea Leaf, Ediya, etc.
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Your point is what you mean to write. This is your opinion which you state as fact.
Starbucks, like other successful franchises, is uniform in its quality and service. It is not coasting on its laurels. Those that do fade away.
Again with the magical. There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing, just a clean well-lighted place with plenty of room and comfortable seating, good wi-fi reception, lots of electrical outlets for recharging electronic devices and the invitation to stay as long as you like.
In your refusal to recognize Starbucks' success, you're being obtuse, the Dave's word of the day. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:42 am Post subject: |
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atwood wrote:
Starbucks has great service and clean, well-designed, fairly spacious storefronts, which were definitely upgrades on the formerly typical Korean coffee shops. |
Quite true about SB, quite true about the former K-coffee shops. quite untrue about today's K-coffee shops as those have clean, well-designed and pretty spacious storefronts and excellent service (Coffee Bean, Angels in us). The key for me is that their coffee (on our last few visits) is on par with SB.
So SB being pushed out now is far less an issue than it would have been 5 years ago in terms of access to good coffee. Well good coffee as far as large coffee shop chains produce. It is not actual good coffee, it is just the best you can get from those chains.... |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing, just a clean well-lighted place with plenty of room and comfortable seating, good wi-fi reception, lots of electrical outlets for recharging electronic devices and the invitation to stay as long as you like. |
That's every major coffee shop in Korea. Heck, that's the majority of independent coffee shops, both here and abroad. What? You think those things aren't available in other coffee shops? A Starbucks can serve crappier coffee, by slightly dingier, have dimmer lighting, and more cramped, have mediocre WiFi, and 1 outlet per table and people would still go there because it has the Starbucks name. They'd also go there if it was attached to their office building or inside the subway station they use everyday. Starbucks gets people in its doors with its brand and its location and its yes, consistency. However that applies to pretty much every major coffee chain, although not to the hyper degree that branding is offered by Starbucks.
So how much time do you spend in coffee shops atwood? Do you have a favorite? Where are all these Holly's or TomNToms or Angel-In-Us that don't have electrical outlets, wi-fi, are dirty, poorly lit, etc.? Or maybe you're referring to the 다방 coffee places. Did you go in there looking for a latte? Wondering how they still exist? Hint they offer a little something extra that Starbucks doesn't.
And yes, dingy coffee shops built in 1970 are losing out to Starbucks. Big surprise. Thats happening the world over. I think that has more to do with them being old than anything inately "Korean" about them. Plenty of independent Korean coffee places are doing fine, offer everything you mentioned and some specialize in offering a more intimate setting or a more "homey" feel, some even serve both coffee AND alcohol and people enjoy them for that. And many serve better coffee than Starbucks' acidic black sludge.
I'm not denying that Starbucks is successful. Its just that they aren't successful because of the reasons you stated. Might as well be saying that the reason McDonald's is successful in Korea is because they actually have a few drive-throughs. Or that 7-11 is successful because unlike CU/GS25/MiniStop they are more brightly lit or offer product X. Its misunderstanding the consumer behavior associated with those places and what those places truly offer and capitalize on. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing, just a clean well-lighted place with plenty of room and comfortable seating, good wi-fi reception, lots of electrical outlets for recharging electronic devices and the invitation to stay as long as you like. |
That's every major coffee shop in Korea. Heck, that's the majority of independent coffee shops, both here and abroad. What? You think those things aren't available in other coffee shops? A Starbucks can serve crappier coffee, by slightly dingier, have dimmer lighting, and more cramped, have mediocre WiFi, and 1 outlet per table and people would still go there because it has the Starbucks name. They'd also go there if it was attached to their office building or inside the subway station they use everyday. Starbucks gets people in its doors with its brand and its location and its yes, consistency. However that applies to pretty much every major coffee chain, although not to the hyper degree that branding is offered by Starbucks.
So how much time do you spend in coffee shops atwood? Do you have a favorite? Where are all these Holly's or TomNToms or Angel-In-Us that don't have electrical outlets, wi-fi, are dirty, poorly lit, etc.? Or maybe you're referring to the 다방 coffee places. Did you go in there looking for a latte? Wondering how they still exist? Hint they offer a little something extra that Starbucks doesn't.
And yes, dingy coffee shops built in 1970 are losing out to Starbucks. Big surprise. Thats happening the world over. I think that has more to do with them being old than anything inately "Korean" about them. Plenty of independent Korean coffee places are doing fine, offer everything you mentioned and some specialize in offering a more intimate setting or a more "homey" feel, some even serve both coffee AND alcohol and people enjoy them for that. And many serve better coffee than Starbucks' acidic black sludge.
I'm not denying that Starbucks is successful. Its just that they aren't successful because of the reasons you stated. Might as well be saying that the reason McDonald's is successful in Korea is because they actually have a few drive-throughs. Or that 7-11 is successful because unlike CU/GS25/MiniStop they are more brightly lit or offer product X. Its misunderstanding the consumer behavior associated with those places and what those places truly offer and capitalize on. |
This, like the rest of your post, is complete and utter nonsense. Your analogies are zanier than Jim Carrey on a case of Red Bull.
"Many serve better coffee"--more of your stock in trade, unsubstantiated hyperbole. A few surely, just by the law of averages, but not many.
"Acidic back sludge"--Why not just admit you've got something against Starbucks and leave it at that rather than babbling away about da bangs and old style "coffee shops" that serve beer along with coffee mix and reconstituted juices?
As for many coffee shops offering the same amenities as Starbucks, they're merely following the leader and most are still a few steps behind. Similar is not the same.
"Homey"? Kitsch is how I'd describe those places. |
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Ralph Winfield
Joined: 23 Apr 2013
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
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atwood wrote:
Starbucks has great service and clean, well-designed, fairly spacious storefronts, which were definitely upgrades on the formerly typical Korean coffee shops. |
Quite true about SB, quite true about the former K-coffee shops. quite untrue about today's K-coffee shops as those have clean, well-designed and pretty spacious storefronts and excellent service (Coffee Bean, Angels in us). The key for me is that their coffee (on our last few visits) is on par with SB.
So SB being pushed out now is far less an issue than it would have been 5 years ago in terms of access to good coffee. Well good coffee as far as large coffee shop chains produce. It is not actual good coffee, it is just the best you can get from those chains.... |
Are you an Asian-Canadian from the Guy-Concordia, N.D.G., or Chinatown area of Montreal?
Take care! |
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Ralph Winfield
Joined: 23 Apr 2013
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing, just a clean well-lighted place with plenty of room and comfortable seating, good wi-fi reception, lots of electrical outlets for recharging electronic devices and the invitation to stay as long as you like. |
That's every major coffee shop in Korea. Heck, that's the majority of independent coffee shops, both here and abroad. What? You think those things aren't available in other coffee shops? A Starbucks can serve crappier coffee, by slightly dingier, have dimmer lighting, and more cramped, have mediocre WiFi, and 1 outlet per table and people would still go there because it has the Starbucks name. They'd also go there if it was attached to their office building or inside the subway station they use everyday. Starbucks gets people in its doors with its brand and its location and its yes, consistency. However that applies to pretty much every major coffee chain, although not to the hyper degree that branding is offered by Starbucks.
So how much time do you spend in coffee shops atwood? Do you have a favorite? Where are all these Holly's or TomNToms or Angel-In-Us that don't have electrical outlets, wi-fi, are dirty, poorly lit, etc.? Or maybe you're referring to the 다방 coffee places. Did you go in there looking for a latte? Wondering how they still exist? Hint they offer a little something extra that Starbucks doesn't.
And yes, dingy coffee shops built in 1970 are losing out to Starbucks. Big surprise. Thats happening the world over. I think that has more to do with them being old than anything inately "Korean" about them. Plenty of independent Korean coffee places are doing fine, offer everything you mentioned and some specialize in offering a more intimate setting or a more "homey" feel, some even serve both coffee AND alcohol and people enjoy them for that. And many serve better coffee than Starbucks' acidic black sludge.
I'm not denying that Starbucks is successful. Its just that they aren't successful because of the reasons you stated. Might as well be saying that the reason McDonald's is successful in Korea is because they actually have a few drive-throughs. Or that 7-11 is successful because unlike CU/GS25/MiniStop they are more brightly lit or offer product X. Its misunderstanding the consumer behavior associated with those places and what those places truly offer and capitalize on. |
This, like the rest of your post, is complete and utter nonsense. Your analogies are zanier than Jim Carrey on a case of Red Bull.
"Many serve better coffee"--more of your stock in trade, unsubstantiated hyperbole. A few surely, just by the law of averages, but not many.
"Acidic back sludge"--Why not just admit you've got something against Starbucks and leave it at that rather than babbling away about da bangs and old style "coffee shops" that serve beer along with coffee mix and reconstituted juices?
As for many coffee shops offering the same amenities as Starbucks, they're merely following the leader and most are still a few steps behind. Similar is not the same.
"Homey"? Kitsch is how I'd describe those places. |
And it's Atwood, the winner, by a country mile!!! |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing. |
Underneath their thin disguise of a coffee shop, SBUX is really just a sugar dispensary. "Sugar bread plus a Venti Toffee Nut Sugar Juice please!". |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
This, like the rest of your post, is complete and utter nonsense. Your analogies are zanier than Jim Carrey on a case of Red Bull.
"Many serve better coffee"--more of your stock in trade, unsubstantiated hyperbole. A few surely, just by the law of averages, but not many.
"Acidic back sludge"--Why not just admit you've got something against Starbucks and leave it at that rather than babbling away about da bangs and old style "coffee shops" that serve beer along with coffee mix and reconstituted juices?
As for many coffee shops offering the same amenities as Starbucks, they're merely following the leader and most are still a few steps behind. Similar is not the same.
"Homey"? Kitsch is how I'd describe those places. |
Atwood, what coffee shops do you frequent? How often do you frequent them and why do you think Starbucks' coffee is so good?
If you live in any big city you should be able to find some excellent coffee shops, with an extensive variety of coffees, wonderful amenities, and excellent decor. The fact that you don't think there aren't a bunch like that is really odd.
| Quote: |
| they're merely following the leader and most are still a few steps behind. |
Please go into detail about what Starbucks offers vs. Angel-in-us or TomNToms or Holly's or Ediya. I mean really give us some good insight. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing, just a clean well-lighted place with plenty of room and comfortable seating, good wi-fi reception, lots of electrical outlets for recharging electronic devices and the invitation to stay as long as you like. |
That's every major coffee shop in Korea. Heck, that's the majority of independent coffee shops, both here and abroad. What? You think those things aren't available in other coffee shops? A Starbucks can serve crappier coffee, by slightly dingier, have dimmer lighting, and more cramped, have mediocre WiFi, and 1 outlet per table and people would still go there because it has the Starbucks name. They'd also go there if it was attached to their office building or inside the subway station they use everyday. Starbucks gets people in its doors with its brand and its location and its yes, consistency. However that applies to pretty much every major coffee chain, although not to the hyper degree that branding is offered by Starbucks.
So how much time do you spend in coffee shops atwood? Do you have a favorite? Where are all these Holly's or TomNToms or Angel-In-Us that don't have electrical outlets, wi-fi, are dirty, poorly lit, etc.? Or maybe you're referring to the 다방 coffee places. Did you go in there looking for a latte? Wondering how they still exist? Hint they offer a little something extra that Starbucks doesn't.
And yes, dingy coffee shops built in 1970 are losing out to Starbucks. Big surprise. Thats happening the world over. I think that has more to do with them being old than anything inately "Korean" about them. Plenty of independent Korean coffee places are doing fine, offer everything you mentioned and some specialize in offering a more intimate setting or a more "homey" feel, some even serve both coffee AND alcohol and people enjoy them for that. And many serve better coffee than Starbucks' acidic black sludge.
I'm not denying that Starbucks is successful. Its just that they aren't successful because of the reasons you stated. Might as well be saying that the reason McDonald's is successful in Korea is because they actually have a few drive-throughs. Or that 7-11 is successful because unlike CU/GS25/MiniStop they are more brightly lit or offer product X. Its misunderstanding the consumer behavior associated with those places and what those places truly offer and capitalize on. |
I think you are missing the point and also making the same points as the guy you are arguing against.
I don't drink coffee. I've only been here a year.
However, from two Koreans who are big coffee drinkers and from what some lifers have said, Starbucks was the one that raised the level, at least here in Korea. It was pretty dire in terms of coffee before that.
Very quickly a lot of other chains popped up and followed the Starbucks template to the letter. As happened around the world.
So yes, now you have a bunch of coffee chains offering the same consistent product and environment in Korea, but it was Starbucks who kicked it all off. The market leader.
Again I don't know nor care about coffee.
But it is kind of funny how Steelrails thinks he's an expert on everything. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm happy that Jeju doesn't have a starbucks. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think there is a Starbucks next to Ripley's.
Unhappy now?  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
This, like the rest of your post, is complete and utter nonsense. Your analogies are zanier than Jim Carrey on a case of Red Bull.
"Many serve better coffee"--more of your stock in trade, unsubstantiated hyperbole. A few surely, just by the law of averages, but not many.
"Acidic back sludge"--Why not just admit you've got something against Starbucks and leave it at that rather than babbling away about da bangs and old style "coffee shops" that serve beer along with coffee mix and reconstituted juices?
As for many coffee shops offering the same amenities as Starbucks, they're merely following the leader and most are still a few steps behind. Similar is not the same.
"Homey"? Kitsch is how I'd describe those places. |
Atwood, what coffee shops do you frequent? How often do you frequent them and why do you think Starbucks' coffee is so good?
If you live in any big city you should be able to find some excellent coffee shops, with an extensive variety of coffees, wonderful amenities, and excellent decor. The fact that you don't think there aren't a bunch like that is really odd.
| Quote: |
| they're merely following the leader and most are still a few steps behind. |
Please go into detail about what Starbucks offers vs. Angel-in-us or TomNToms or Holly's or Ediya. I mean really give us some good insight. |
Blind rabbit, you are a lying sack of shite. I never said Starbucks coffee was "so good." I've even intimated I'm no coffee afficiando.
As for the excellent coffee shops you describe, yes they do exist. They're called Starbucks.
My favorite coffee shop is actually Illy. But come summer time a frappuccino from Starbucks, copied by many but never equalled, is mighty tasty.
Last edited by atwood on Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I didn't know males drank frappucinos. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's nothing magical in what Starbucks is providing, just a clean well-lighted place with plenty of room and comfortable seating, good wi-fi reception, lots of electrical outlets for recharging electronic devices and the invitation to stay as long as you like. |
So how much time do you spend in coffee shops atwood? Do you have a favorite? Where are all these Holly's or TomNToms or Angel-In-Us that don't have electrical outlets, wi-fi, are dirty, poorly lit, etc.? Or maybe you're referring to the 다방 coffee places. Did you go in there looking for a latte? Wondering how they still exist? Hint they offer a little something extra that Starbucks doesn't.
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I those 다방들 are dissapearing. Sad to see them go. Ha ha. I'm sure those girls were the best.... |
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