Korean Job Discussion Forums

[PRagic]

That hypothetical person would be sorely misinformed and an anomaly in academe.

[misher]

Well maybe all the tenured academics in my family or who I've met studying in the US that at one point gave papers/lectured in asia are anomalies.

Their opinions about academic standards among faculty in China and Korea were pretty grim. Dubious hiring practices, poor quality of research, crap publications (quantity over quality) corruption, relationships between professors and students with no repercussions etc.

Basically, if you can't get a tenure track job in the US, Canada, Australia, UK etc, go to asia because their hiring standards for foreigners are, well, not as rigorous? Depending on the field, if you're tenure track at dong won university in business education, nobody back home will know what that is. The same stereotype applies PRagic. Fair and misinformed? Perhaps, but there is an element of truth to it as well. You seem to be secure and comfortable but when you knock the shadiness of ESL at universities like you're a step up, it looks silly. Edwardcatflap makes a good point. If academics in the west were slamming Korean universities it would hit a nerve with you. Just like it does for others when you insult crapwons.

[edwardcatflap]

The fact is, looking down on people for whatever reason is a normal human trait we've all been guilty of at some stage in our lives. In a capitalist system based on competition it's inevitable. The best most people can strive for is to supress their feelings about it enough, so it doesn't show.

[Stain]

Everywhere people try to feel superior to others. It makes us feel good and justified in our existence. This is only natural. There are people who I feel superior to and others who I feel inferior to. That's the thing, it will always be like that. Eventually, the only thing you'll care about is your next meal, your next drink, and whether or not you'll be able to take a satisfactory shit.

[PRagic]

@ misher

Again, good points, but you're largely reinforcing what I said previously. I remarked that there are indeed some good hakwons, and that if you can find one, you can do good things there. By and large, though, the bar is set low and these are entry level jobs.

Now back to the OP's question: does this mean I would look down on or feel support to someone working at a hakwon? No.

Extrapolating the argument to include university positions, I'd have to say that, yes, some of the tenured faculty in your family are misinformed, if only about the broader spectrum of university hiring criteria here. Perhaps their insights are merely dated. To even get an interview at a top 5 here, for example, you need at least 2 SCI/SSCI publications; ABD need not apply.

The competition in some fields is stiff, particularly because you have a lot of applicants from top-tier global institutions. Is it tougher to get a job at Stanford than at SNU? Of course. But is it tougher to get a position at XX State U than Yonsei? No. SNU is a globally ranked top 40, and in the top 20 where SCI/SSCI publications are concerned. Ewha has business school accreditation. Those are international standards and tough to fudge.

So just as some hakwon jobs are stepping stones for some teachers, some university tenure track jobs at K universities are stepping stones, whether to better K universities or to universities elsewhere, for some academics. On the other hand, much as academics stay put at any given level of institution in any given location in the west, some academics find a position here that works for them and their families and they stay put.

And, again, back to the OP. I don't knock anything 'like I'm a step up,' and I've only ever given props to those who teach ESL professionally, university positions included.

Finally, for the record, academics rarely 'slam' other academics based on where they work. If you work at an R1 school, you're judged by your peers based on your research and professional contributions.Teaching awards are also kudos. If you work at a teaching intensive institution ( e.g. some state schools, private colleges, and 2 year schools) then different metrics are applicable.

But in the end, the older one gets, the less one feels the need, or is naturally inclined, to compare oneself to others in the hope of gaining a feeling of superiority. That was the gist of the OP, and, no, I don't go there.

[PRagic]

...as an add on, I'll qualify that last remark. I look at life as a series of choices, and a sign of character as the ability to take responsibility for one's choices. As such, there isn't much need to compare my position with anyone else's position (the thrust of the OP).

If someone is teaching kindly and is satisfied with their position, I respect them much as I respect some friends back home who long ago decided that they wanted to be middle school or high school teachers, or colleagues who decided they wanted to be professors. In each case, a person chose a course, pursued the means to achieve their goal, and settled into their chosen vocation. But the job isn't the person.

The person is what we see and experience. I do, therefore, have less respect for a person who bitches about what they do, but takes no steps to change their lot. So why would I look down on a hakwon teacher who is here to save some coin and then move on? Everyone starts somewhere. Or a university ESL teacher who, for whatever reason, is happy with what they're doing?

But that MA holder who insists on being called 'professor'? To me, that's indicative of someone who isn't happy with their current position, but who won't pony up the effort to get the credentials they need to feel actualized.

[wooden nickels]

[kimchi_pizza]

Very well put, PRagic.

Nothin' to add, but a sprinkle of kudos.

[PatrickGHBusan]

[yodanole]

OK, Children, ......... Raise your hand if you can spell paycheck. Anyone?

Some institute jobs are really bad. Some university jobs are worse. It is your boss and coworkers and who the organizers of the enterprise are that make a difference.

ESL ain't gonna get you on the cover of The Rolling Stone.

[ricochet]

[ChrisPK]

Hello Hagwon folks,

Have you ever been asked to clean the classroom or the toilet at your hagwon? I heard that your boss ask you to do this kind of stuff at a small hagwon. Please confirm this if it's true. Just curious, not trying to put you down by any means.

Cheers,
Chris

[GENO123]

A University salary will not look the same if housing , air fare and severence are deducted. Salaries can look better or worse depending on how they are calculated and what deductions are included. Getting to 5M would be hard even under pretty good conditions . Personally I think it is neither helpful nor informative when posters use best of all possible world numbers to reach the numbers they do.



Lets say someone makes 3.5

now deduct housing - (300) , that there is no severence (-200) and no airfare (- 200)

3.5 -300 -200 -200 =2.8M

iI think it is fair use the same standards for University salaries that one uses for hogwon salaries.


Moreover extra work is not entirely safe either when one is working at University somce they might fire you if you get caught. (especially a big famous one ) and a residence visa doesn't change that.




Also, I don't understand why Universities are being given credit for a teacher's extra income. if a school (especially one of the big ones ) catches someone doing extra work they fire them. If someone makes money because of extra work it is not because of the school but in spite of the school. As I said above: get caught lose your job -even if one has visa which allows them to do extra work . They are sanctimonious as anything and truly full of themselves at those places.

Someone may only teach 12 or 16 but if someone is at a big school they will have to work exponentially more than that. The concept of " contact hours" means nothing (especially at the big famous schools ) 12 -16 hours of teaching is illusory. If one is in their office correcting papers for hours and hours and hours it is still work. What counts is total work and trouble compared to compensation.

Generally speaking there are three types of situations if you work for a Korean university:

A ) A name university where you have to work until you are sick (remember contact hours means ZERO) , get pushed around and your life is miserable cause you are nothing but a servant. If you choose to work at one it is like being sick for 8 months of the year. You might get sick for real if you work for one. They don't really pay that much in the end either (see above).

OR

B ) A university where you get paid next to nothing. This actually is an okay option IF you don't really need money.

OR

C ) Both A & B


You can avoid this IF you have a PHD and it is also true that working in Korea is better than Wall Mart but for those just getting out of college, but basically the in between between those two extremes in Korea is rapidly disappearing if it isn't already gone.

Yes you can pretty much write off teaching in Korea if you need a salary any greater that what is needed to support a single person unless one has a PHD.

Korea university jobs especially the big famous schools are a sort of pyramid trick. If you work at one there is nothing to feel superior about.

[PatrickGHBusan]

Again GENO you make some good points but your post is mostly an exageration.

You CAN earn a good living with a related MA as a teacher. The visa you are on can also change the game to some extent.



The comparison to Walmart is hilariously wrong.

[GENO123]