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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Why would I take the word of a respected journalist who has his works published, before which they are fact-checked and edited, over a random blogger? I think the answer is self-evident. |
A journalist who (a.) has a questionable history of ethics and (b.) has no knowledge about Korea, Korean language or linguistics over someone who actually is Korean.
This is a classic appeal to authority fallacy. Gladwell is just a journalist who wrote about it and isn't trained on the subject and it shows.
| Quote: |
| As for "people talking about Gladwell," as far as I can tell, that's only you, at least on this forum. Of course the topics you bring up related to him are out-dated--when was the book written? |
You're missing the point.
The big aspect of his argument was the role of language barriers that played in the Guam crash. The problem was that Korean pilots on the plane spoke pretty good English and this was after the Korean airline industry massively reformed their training to make English a big part of the program. That is where the "outdated" comes from. |
Pretty good English obviously wasn't good enough.
You're the blogger, right? The "you're missing the point" is a dead giveaway.
I gave reasons why I'll take Gladwell's analysis over the bloggers (yours0 and if you'd like to dismiss it as an appeal to authority go ahead. I like that you countered with an ad hominem attack on Gladwell.
The criticism of Gladwell taking speaking fees can be debated, but how about this celebration of the integrity: http://raggedband.com/?p=2719
It's from a blogger so I'm sure you'll be down with it.
Last edited by atwood on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
Hey CJ, you can't criticize any aspect of Korean culture. It's taboo.
Every country is equal. Every person in the world goes through life the same as everybody else. The legal system, people, culture, society, beliefs are all the same.
If anything were to deviate, it is probably due to mathematics.
A woman living in Iran would culturally have the same life as a woman living in South Korea. If something were to happen to the woman in Iran, but not to the woman in Korea, it's due to a random incident, possibly due to the action of 1 individual. |
This is pretty much it, isn't it? Just look at UM's post. "If we look hard enough, we'll find instances of negligence around the world. Therefore, negligence is not unique to Korea, and thus negligence had nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country."
I bet if we look hard enough (or not even that hard) we'd find instances of sexism across the globe. So therefore sexism is not unique to Saudi Arabia, and thus no incident that has ever happened in that country can be attributed to the culture there.
With leaps like that UM could clean up at the next track and field meet. And no, UM I'm not going to scour 8 years of your posts to find the definition of "is". This is what you said, and nothing will change the fact that it is one of the dumbest things ever posted on here (which is saying quite a bit). Everyone who posts this nonsense should be deported for not having the proper education or intellectual development necessary for their visa.
As someone said, the whole thing can't be blamed on culture, but to say culture never has any influence is simply stupid. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="RangerMcGreggor"]
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
I'm curious if you believe that Gladwell was so off base in his analysis, why did various Korean airlines adopt the very measures that counteracted the things he pointed out? Why did the safety records of Korean airlines, specifically Korean Air, improve so dramatically once these policies were put in place? |
Except they didn't. The Korean airlines (along with like 20 other countries) implemented changes in the 1990s after reviews of OTHER groups in reaction. Also, they aren't actually Gladwell's policies as some of his theories are actually piggyed back by other people, notably Robert Helmreich (which isn't a knock on Gladwell btw since he has made it clear he is borrowing heavily from Helmreich).
Which actually reminds me of something that many people often forget when talking about Gladwell: He was talking about Korean airlines up until he mid 1990s. Whatever parts he got right or were atleast notable, they may not even accurately describe any problems Korean airlines face.
| Quote: |
| I'm also curious why you take the word of some random anonymous internet blogger with a stated pro-Korea agenda over that of a respected author who has written accurate, well-researched and thoughtful books and articles on a number of cultural issues around the world? Not saying he must get everything right, but I'm not sure why I have to believe some random guy on the internet more than him, especially when evidence, both scientific and empirical, supports the established and respected author. |
I'm curious to wonder why you'd take the word of some random journalist, who is not trained in anything related to aviation nor sociology nor Korean studies at all, over an actual Korean on the issue of Korean culture.
Gladwell is a journalist best known for pop-behavioral economics. There is nothing to suggest he is an expert on this or even did a crapload of research. IIRC, he didn't even talk to any actual Korean pilots which is pretty damning for any journalist. Throw in the fact that some of his ideas are either incredibly outdated or incredibly wrong (the language argument) then it is really hard to take it seriously. |
This doesn't even make sense. Yes, Gladwell only covered Korean airlines until the mid-late 90s. He then documented the changes they made. And the stats speak for themselves, Korean Air's safety record has drastically improved since then. That's....that's the point he was making.
You also say we shouldn't trust Gladwell because he's just some journalist and not an expert. Besides, he just reprinted other experts' opinions! Uh, ok.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You obviously have a pre-conceived answer in your head and facts are not going to sway you. Everything Gladwell says are lies because he...charged an appearance fee? He's just a journalist? You don't like his hair? I'm really not sure as no evidence to dispute his claims has been presented. But you'll take the word of some anonymous internet blogger who's stated purpose is to defend Korea's reputation at all costs and has ZERO expertise or proof as gospel. I mean, how can I compete with that? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| mayorgc wrote: |
Hey CJ, you can't criticize any aspect of Korean culture. It's taboo.
Every country is equal. Every person in the world goes through life the same as everybody else. The legal system, people, culture, society, beliefs are all the same.
If anything were to deviate, it is probably due to mathematics.
A woman living in Iran would culturally have the same life as a woman living in South Korea. If something were to happen to the woman in Iran, but not to the woman in Korea, it's due to a random incident, possibly due to the action of 1 individual. |
This is pretty much it, isn't it? Just look at UM's post. "If we look hard enough, we'll find instances of negligence around the world. Therefore, negligence is not unique to Korea, and thus negligence had nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country."
I bet if we look hard enough (or not even that hard) we'd find instances of sexism across the globe. So therefore sexism is not unique to Saudi Arabia, and thus no incident that has ever happened in that country can be attributed to the culture there.
With leaps like that UM could clean up at the next track and field meet. And no, UM I'm not going to scour 8 years of your posts to find the definition of "is". This is what you said, and nothing will change the fact that it is one of the dumbest things ever posted on here (which is saying quite a bit). Everyone who posts this nonsense should be deported for not having the proper education or intellectual development necessary for their visa.
As someone said, the whole thing can't be blamed on culture, but to say culture never has any influence is simply stupid. |
The only one making leaps and saying dumb things is you.
Let's look at this gem for example.
| Quote: |
| Just look at UM's post. "If we look hard enough, we'll find instances of negligence around the world. Therefore, negligence is not unique to Korea, and thus negligence had nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country." |
First of all you put that in quotes in a blatant attempt to make people think I actually said that. Furthermore I never said that negligence has "nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country."
I was simply pointing out that negligence is not UNIQUE to Korea and thus can not be "Korean culture".
| Quote: |
| As someone said, the whole thing can't be blamed on culture, but to say culture never has any influence is simply stupid. |
And again we have a clear fabrication of what I said. I never made the claim that culture has no influence.
Either you are quite deliberately lying about what I said...or you simply don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what I said.
Neither one makes you look good...so stop embarrassing yourself. It's quite painful to watch. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| mayorgc wrote: |
Hey CJ, you can't criticize any aspect of Korean culture. It's taboo.
Every country is equal. Every person in the world goes through life the same as everybody else. The legal system, people, culture, society, beliefs are all the same.
If anything were to deviate, it is probably due to mathematics.
A woman living in Iran would culturally have the same life as a woman living in South Korea. If something were to happen to the woman in Iran, but not to the woman in Korea, it's due to a random incident, possibly due to the action of 1 individual. |
This is pretty much it, isn't it? Just look at UM's post. "If we look hard enough, we'll find instances of negligence around the world. Therefore, negligence is not unique to Korea, and thus negligence had nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country."
I bet if we look hard enough (or not even that hard) we'd find instances of sexism across the globe. So therefore sexism is not unique to Saudi Arabia, and thus no incident that has ever happened in that country can be attributed to the culture there.
With leaps like that UM could clean up at the next track and field meet. And no, UM I'm not going to scour 8 years of your posts to find the definition of "is". This is what you said, and nothing will change the fact that it is one of the dumbest things ever posted on here (which is saying quite a bit). Everyone who posts this nonsense should be deported for not having the proper education or intellectual development necessary for their visa.
As someone said, the whole thing can't be blamed on culture, but to say culture never has any influence is simply stupid. |
The only one making leaps and saying dumb things is you.
Let's look at this gem for example.
| Quote: |
| Just look at UM's post. "If we look hard enough, we'll find instances of negligence around the world. Therefore, negligence is not unique to Korea, and thus negligence had nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country." |
First of all you put that in quotes in a blatant attempt to make people think I actually said that. Furthermore I never said that negligence has "nothing to do with this, or any, event that has ever happened in this country."
I was simply pointing out that negligence is not UNIQUE to Korea and thus can not be "Korean culture".
| Quote: |
| As someone said, the whole thing can't be blamed on culture, but to say culture never has any influence is simply stupid. |
And again we have a clear fabrication of what I said. I never made the claim that culture has no influence.
Either you are quite deliberately lying about what I said...or you simply don't have the intellectual capacity to understand what I said.
Neither one makes you look good...so stop embarrassing yourself. It's quite painful to watch. |
Something does not have to be unique to a culture to be part of a particular culture. See my above example regarding rice.
Your claim is totally without merit.
And if you're not saying that culture has no influence, what exactly are you saying? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
[
You answers are IMO evasive and don't look at the whole picture.
For example, your statements about interracial marriages. You don't mention how tiny a percentage of all marriages in Korea they are, which would go to demonstrate how much or how little they are accepted by society. As it is, your "good number" is debatable.
You also fail to mention that many of such marriages are marriages of convenience, that otherwise rural Korean males would be without a mate.
Finally, just because a few people do something doesn't mean that the society as a whole accepts it.
Your whole argument seems to be that not 100% of Koreans do, think or feel exactly the same on an issue and thus there are no generally held values or beliefs in Korea...
Furthermore, why can't laziness and the other attributes you mention be cultural? |
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/interracial-marriages-u-s-hit-all-time-high-4-8-million-article-1.1023643
According to that article that's 1 in 12 marriages in the U.S)
Now let's look at Korea
http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/south-korea-tightens-rules-on-international-marriages/
In 2009 interracial marriages were around 10%. (slightly higher than the U.S).
(Yes the stats are a few years old but these were the most recent I could find.)
Anyway if you are going to criticize Korea for having a "tiny" percentage of interracial marriages it would seem like the U.S is a slightly better target for your ire. Point being it's rather rich to complain about Korea when more racially diverse and more populous countries have even fewer interracial marriages as a percentage.
So if you are going to use the percentage of interracial marriages as a barometer it would seem that at a minimum that the U.S is just as racially intolerant as Korea.
As for your last question...if these attributes WERE cultural...then why do they crop up in every other culture in the world? |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
As for your last question...if these attributes WERE cultural...then why do they crop up in every other culture in the world? |
Maybe in some cultures, certain attributes are more pronounced then they are compared to other cultures. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
[
You answers are IMO evasive and don't look at the whole picture.
For example, your statements about interracial marriages. You don't mention how tiny a percentage of all marriages in Korea they are, which would go to demonstrate how much or how little they are accepted by society. As it is, your "good number" is debatable.
You also fail to mention that many of such marriages are marriages of convenience, that otherwise rural Korean males would be without a mate.
Finally, just because a few people do something doesn't mean that the society as a whole accepts it.
Your whole argument seems to be that not 100% of Koreans do, think or feel exactly the same on an issue and thus there are no generally held values or beliefs in Korea...
Furthermore, why can't laziness and the other attributes you mention be cultural? |
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/interracial-marriages-u-s-hit-all-time-high-4-8-million-article-1.1023643
According to that article that's 1 in 12 marriages in the U.S)
Now let's look at Korea
http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/south-korea-tightens-rules-on-international-marriages/
In 2009 interracial marriages were around 10%. (slightly higher than the U.S).
(Yes the stats are a few years old but these were the most recent I could find.)
Anyway if you are going to criticize Korea for having a "tiny" percentage of interracial marriages it would seem like the U.S is a slightly better target for your ire. Point being it's rather rich to complain about Korea when more racially diverse and more populous countries have even fewer interracial marriages as a percentage.
So if you are going to use the percentage of interracial marriages as a barometer it would seem that at a minimum that the U.S is just as racially intolerant as Korea.
As for your last question...if these attributes WERE cultural...then why do they crop up in every other culture in the world? |
What ire? Can any of you apologistas argue without putting words in others' mouths?
I was merely demonstrating the weakness of your example, a weakness that you haven't rectified because marrying a foreigner is different from an inter-racial marriage. Most of the marriages you're citing are to other Asians. That's, in your words, "rather rich."
As for your last comment, are you telling me Germans, for examples, are known for being lazy, cutting corners and doing shoddy work?
Try arguing from facts rather than with rhetorical gimmicks. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Why do the apologistas insist on denying why Korean themselves admit:
| Quote: |
| In the Yeongnam Ilbo, a regional newspaper based in the country’s fourth-largest city Daegu, one column described the Sewol disaster as “the worst sort of outrageous drama” created by a culture of “daechung daechung,” translated loosely as “cutting corners.” |
| Quote: |
| An editorial for the Jeju Ilbo, headquartered on the island the ill-fated ferry had been traveling to, asked if the “ppalli ppalli” mentality was to blame for the disaster, warning that economic development alone cannot create an “advanced country.” |
http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/south-korea-grapples-with-implications-of-ferry-tragedy/
Assist to tum for the links.  |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Something does not have to be unique to a culture to be part of a particular culture. See my above example regarding rice.
Your claim is totally without merit.
And if you're not saying that culture has no influence, what exactly are you saying? |
This UM's MO. He makes ridiculous claims with shoddy evidence (look! Some random blogger on the internet makes this claim! Therefore your pages of scientific evidence is meaningless!), and then when you call him out on it he'll act like an outraged brat. From there it's pages of him arguing semantics. Then he'll put words in your mouth and call you names. It's like watching the sun rise in the morning. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| It's easy to observe this type of slipshod work in Korea because there is no culture of quality craftsmanship. |
Is that korean culture, or just a feature of a rapidly developed society that has not had time to properly understand the demands of industrialisation?
They made the boat top-heavy by adding new decks to maximize profits.
No safety standards officer intervened and no engineer foresaw the consequences. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| It's easy to observe this type of slipshod work in Korea because there is no culture of quality craftsmanship. |
Is that korean culture, or just a feature of a rapidly developed society that has not had time to properly understand the demands of industrialisation?
They made the boat top-heavy by adding new decks to maximize profits.
No safety standards officer intervened and no engineer foresaw the consequences. |
Nope, but nice sounding excuse.
A country doesn't have to be industrialized to have a culture of excellence. Quality workmanship existed long before industrialization.
And why ignore most of Korea's history when discussing its culture? |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="nicwr2002"]
| guavashake wrote: |
Also, following your post you suggest that getting vaccines leads to death?
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Firstly, the statement you refer to does not follow my post, the statement is included in the post, as an integral part of the post. Its part of the post.
If you are asking genuinely and sincerely, you can find the answer by doing a google search faster than reading my post, thinking about it for a minute, and composing your post.
However, there could be a problem if you are internet impaired or internet challenged. If that is the case, you can get back to me and I will help. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| Quote: |
As for your last question...if these attributes WERE cultural...then why do they crop up in every other culture in the world? |
Maybe in some cultures, certain attributes are more pronounced then they are compared to other cultures. |
Yup.
It's a pretty simple concept. But it's far too nuanced for him and the rest of the apolo-tards.
Imagine that, things exist in varying degrees in the world. Amazing concept. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/interracial-marriages-u-s-hit-all-time-high-4-8-million-article-1.1023643
According to that article that's 1 in 12 marriages in the U.S)
Now let's look at Korea
http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/south-korea-tightens-rules-on-international-marriages/
In 2009 interracial marriages were around 10%. (slightly higher than the U.S).
(Yes the stats are a few years old but these were the most recent I could find.)
Anyway if you are going to criticize Korea for having a "tiny" percentage of interracial marriages it would seem like the U.S is a slightly better target for your ire. Point being it's rather rich to complain about Korea when more racially diverse and more populous countries have even fewer interracial marriages as a percentage.
So if you are going to use the percentage of interracial marriages as a barometer it would seem that at a minimum that the U.S is just as racially intolerant as Korea.
As for your last question...if these attributes WERE cultural...then why do they crop up in every other culture in the world? |
Yep - as pointed out earlier, most of the international marriages in Korea are to Asians. Unless you too are a believer that Koreans are a race of their own superior to all (we, in the apologist brotherhood fully support this notion). |
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