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Bimujang
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: Where I shouldn't be
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Wow! It seems we've got Daniel Pipes himself posting here!
| bigverne wrote: |
Another so-called 'moderate', and highly influential muslim scholar is Tariq Ramadan.
Tariq Ramadan was initially lauded in Western media as a Muslim reformer, and even dubbed the Muslim "Martin Luther". However, this has been put into doubt by things like this:
He has praised the brutal Islamist policies of the Sudanese politician Hassan Al-Turabi. Mr. Turabi in turn called Mr. Ramadan the "future of Islam."
Mr. Ramadan was banned from entering France in 1996 on suspicion of having links with an Algerian Islamist who had recently initiated a terrorist campaign in Paris.
Ahmed Brahim, an Algerian indicted for Al-Qaeda activities, had "routine contacts" with Mr. Ramadan, according to a Spanish judge (Baltasar Garzón) in 1999.
Djamel Beghal, leader of a group accused of planning to attack the American embassy in Paris, stated in his 2001 trial that he had studied with Mr. Ramadan.
Along with nearly all Islamists, Mr. Ramadan has denied that there is "any certain proof" that Bin Laden was behind 9/11.
He publicly refers to the Islamist atrocities of 9/11, Bali, and Madrid as "interventions," minimizing them to the point of near-endorsement. |
From Daniel Pipe's blog:
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He has praised the brutal Islamist policies of the Sudanese politician Hassan Al-Turabi. Mr. Turabi in turn called Mr. Ramadan the "future of Islam."
* Mr. Ramadan was banned from entering France in 1996 on suspicion of having links with an Algerian Islamist who had recently initiated a terrorist campaign in Paris.
* Ahmed Brahim, an Algerian indicted for Al-Qaeda activities, had "routine contacts" with Mr. Ramadan, according to a Spanish judge (Baltasar Garzón) in 1999.
* Djamel Beghal, leader of a group accused of planning to attack the American embassy in Paris, stated in his 2001 trial that he had studied with Mr. Ramadan.
* Along with nearly all Islamists, Mr. Ramadan has denied that there is "any certain proof" that Bin Laden was behind 9/11.
* He publicly refers to the Islamist atrocities of 9/11, Bali, and Madrid as "interventions," minimizing them to the point of near-endorsement.
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http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2043
But guess what, Daniel. All your charges were refuted point by point already by Ramadan in US World and Report, of all places:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/041129/29ramadan.htm
Aren't you smrt? |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:27 am Post subject: ... |
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| Isn't it just slightly ironic, bigverne, that you're citing a Muslim in Pakistan criticizing Islam to support your rabid view that Muslims are hell-bent on overthrowing the western world? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Bigverne = Daniel Pipes?  |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: ... |
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bigverne= Chicken Little
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| You still seem to think I'm American. There is zero chance that muslims will make up a significant population of the USA in the near future, |
Again, you assume I assume something. You, of course, could declare your state and religion since all of your posts are about states and religion.
Mighty strong terms you're weilding here. I'd say that there's zero chance of you making a significant point in the near or far future.
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| and if I was American I would be concerned about Texas, New Mexico and California seceding from the Union, and unifying with Mexico in fifty years time. |
Yes. I'm excrementing in my britches about this, Nostradamus.
It did take you a while to fly your true colors, but you did; and anyone entertaining the silliness above does not deserve to be taken seriously.
Now go quote some more scripture. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Isn't it just slightly ironic, bigverne, that you're citing a Muslim in Pakistan criticizing Islam to support your rabid view that Muslims are hell-bent on overthrowing the western world? |
Just a tad. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Isn't it just slightly ironic, bigverne, that you're citing a Muslim in Pakistan criticizing Islam to support your rabid view that Muslims are hell-bent on overthrowing the western world? |
Where did I say that muslims 'were hellbent on overthrowing the world'?
Once again you fail to address the point, that senior muslim scholars, quoting from the Koran are inciting violence and religious hatred. Because you cannot challenge the substance of my claims, you are left to challenge my motives, or resort to hysterics. Very sad.
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| I'd say that there's zero chance of you making a significant point in the near or far future. |
I made a claim that senior muslim clerics, not fringe radicals were inciting violence, and using Koranic scripture to justify such teachings. I included quotes from the Mufti of Egypt, and the Sheikh of the most prestigious university in the Islamic world doing exactly that. Care to refute this claim, or will you resort to your usual childish nonsense?
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| anyone entertaining the silliness above does not deserve to be taken seriously. |
Why is this claim so silly? In 50 years Texas, New Mexico and California are likely to be overwhelmingly Hispanic. What Quebec is to Canada, these states may well be to America. It is anything but 'silliness' as you say. Or, maybe, you could tell me why it is 'silliness.' Go on, try to construct an argument. I dare ya! |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Quebec hasn't split from Canada now has it?
Why would hispanic states want to split??
Hawaii is majority Asian. It has a movement to leave the USA. Yet it hasn't. Why? Because the majority of people aren't idiots and realize the benefits of being attached with the United States. I'm sure it will be the same in the southern US 50 years from now.
Dude, are you that clueless about hispanic communities in the USA? Not like they don't integrate themselves with the rest of the country. Farm pickers and dishwashers don't represent the hispanic community at large. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Again, you assume I assume something. |
Why would you say this:
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| if current immigration demographics continue, perhaps you should talk to Vicente Fox, since Hispanic immigration far outpaces that of Muslims. |
If you didn't assume I was American?
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| Quebec hasn't split from Canada now has it? |
That's correct, although it came mighty close a few years ago I seem to remember. The situation with the Hispanic population in the US is different of course. Immigration from Mexico into the 3 states mentioned continues at very high levels, lessening the assimilation pressures on those communities. In Quebec, the native French speaking population isn't increasing, while immigrants from overseas, with less association with Quebecois sentiment are rising.
The question is, do Mexican immigrants, living in states that used to be part of Mexico, in predominantly Spanish speaking communities consider themselves Mexican or American? The answer to that question, and how it changes will determine whether those states remain part of the union.
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| Why would hispanic states want to split?? |
Why do some Scots and Welsh want to split from the United Kingdom? Because they have a distinct history and culture, and some of them resent being ruled by the English. Why do you think Mexicans would be any different? It would be only natural that perhaps they would choose to join with their cultural kin in Mexico.
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| I'm sure it will be the same in the southern US 50 years from now. |
That's by no means certain. In 50 years Mexico could be a reasonably prosperous state, and unifying with their Spanish speaking, and culturally similar neighbours might seem much more feasible. |
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Emu Bitter
Joined: 27 May 2004
Location: Bundang
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Islam should be declared a cult in civilized countries(non-Muslim) it's bad enough we have to deal with superstitious Christian types, hippie buddhists & hindus without having to deal with these backward muslims as well. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If you didn't assume I was American? |
Now I'm under the assumption that you're Daniel Pipes. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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The answer to that question, and how it changes will determine whether those states remain part of the union.
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As a non-American you cannot be expected to know details about American history. However, if you insist on engaging in discussions about American history it would behoove you, and benefit the quality of the discussion, to know some basic facts.
There was a Civil War (1861-1865) that was fought over the issue of states leaving the Union. The side in favor of dissolving the union lost the war. The symbolic end of the war came at Appomattox Court House when Lee surrendered to Grant. (Yes, it may be a surprise to you but Robert E. Lee was not just a steamboat.)
In case you got lost: the point was made in 1865 that a state cannot leave the Union, no matter how many of its citizens wish it. We are Americans first, citizen of a state second (and not even as important as second--all it takes to become a citizen of a state is to move there and get a mail box.). |
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calypso
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Emu Bitter wrote: |
| Islam should be declared a cult in civilized countries(non-Muslim) it's bad enough we have to deal with superstitious Christian types, hippie buddhists & hindus without having to deal with these backward muslims as well. |
it used to be ages ago that people used to question the qoran and have their own views of what things meant. Just like the bible today. Today no one can question what the qoran says. but there are more people doing so and the religion is slowly changing. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
In case you got lost: the point was made in 1865 that a state cannot leave the Union, no matter how many of its citizens wish it. We are Americans first, citizen of a state second (and not even as important as second--all it takes to become a citizen of a state is to move there and get a mail box.). |
That issue was decided by force, not argument.
Still, in 1860, the Southern states felt they had a realistic chance at leaving the Union. Who's to say that an overwhelmingly Hispanic Southwest won't feel the same way? |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Thanks, Mith. I knew there was something in the Bible about beating the crap out of a kid. Just got the specific quote wrong. My bad. |
Congratulations Yata! You can now dismiss the Christian religion without even having to open up the Bible. Yes, Christians routinely base their lives on Old Testament teachings written a thousand years before Christ. Haven't you noticed them sacrificing lambs, ram, doves and such? And haven't you noticed how they obstain from pork and shell fish? And Christians are easy to spot because of this verse: "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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One of the biggest problems we Christians have is the simple separation of old and new, whereas most Jews will know well that Proverbs and Ecclesiastes was written some four centuries after Deuteronomy.
Approximately. |
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