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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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even in the south?  If anywhere, it would be in the south where you COULD buy an assualt weapon.
Did Congress not renew the assualt weapons ban last year? Doh. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
Those are all examples of why cultures can be judged. "Good" and "bad" can be used to describes cultures. If not, than "better" cannot be used either and improvement is impossible. Is Amercian culture better for banning slavery? Is it better for giving women the right to vote? Or is it just a different culture than it used to be-not better, not worse, just different? If cultures cannot be judged, they cannot be improved. If people fight to change an aspect of their culture, they cannot argue that they are trying to "improve" things, only change things. And why change things just to change them?
I always found it odd that many of the people who preach cultural relativism also have strong feelings about human rights. One concept is purely relative and value-free, the other is universal and laden with value. These two "ideals" conflict regularly. If you believe in human rights, you believe in universals and absolutes. |
Judging and criticizing a culture is one thing, saying it is barbaric is another. Parts of a culture might be inhumane, but culture covers a lot of territory. I think it is quite extreme to use that term to describe a culture; it is way too general and simplistic. |
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junkmail
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| I always found it odd that many of the people who preach cultural relativism also have strong feelings about human rights. One concept is purely relative and value-free, the other is universal and laden with value. These two "ideals" conflict regularly. If you believe in human rights, you believe in universals and absolutes. |
I fully agree.
I hate the PC brigade with a passion.
Two of the people I've known adapt to Korean life the best are both ex-marines. They have a wonderful get used to it and get on with it attitude.
I do believe in cultural relativism up to a point though. Make your own country the sort of place you think it should be. If other people are impressed, they'll follow, if not ... well everyone's different.
As I said before, even if you do find another culture barbaric what are you going to do about it? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| junkmail wrote: |
| even if you do find another culture barbaric what are you going to do about it? |
One phrase comes to mind..."Nuke 'em and start all over."
edit: for the record, I'm not serious advocating this...
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| then again, if they don't impact your life, who cares what they do? Sounds like, "we destroyed the vilage to save it." Obviously it doesn't apply to the arab world or muslims in general due to 9/11 and the like, but other cultures it does. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
Those are all examples of why cultures can be judged. "Good" and "bad" can be used to describes cultures. If not, than "better" cannot be used either and improvement is impossible. Is Amercian culture better for banning slavery? Is it better for giving women the right to vote? Or is it just a different culture than it used to be-not better, not worse, just different? If cultures cannot be judged, they cannot be improved. If people fight to change an aspect of their culture, they cannot argue that they are trying to "improve" things, only change things. And why change things just to change them?
I always found it odd that many of the people who preach cultural relativism also have strong feelings about human rights. One concept is purely relative and value-free, the other is universal and laden with value. These two "ideals" conflict regularly. If you believe in human rights, you believe in universals and absolutes. |
Judging and criticizing a culture is one thing, saying it is barbaric is another. Parts of a culture might be inhumane, but culture covers a lot of territory. I think it is quite extreme to use that term to describe a culture; it is way too general and simplistic. |
I agree. It also of no use whatsoever. If you feel a culture is lagging behind in some area of human rights, there are diplomatic ways to try to influence that culture. No one is going to be influenced positively by people who call them barbaric. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| You believe it's okay to say that some 'peoples' are barbaric? By the same rationale, you perhaps might be inclined to suggest that some 'peoples' are more civilsed than others. |
Seems pretty obvious to me. Otherwise, you are in the absurd position of saying that all cultures are of equal value, which quite patently they are not. Once again, female genital mutilation, forced marriage and honour killings are barbaric. |
I didn't say cultures, I said peoples.
| scarneck wrote: |
| Well, if you putt from the rough, don't visit Iran...pretty simple. Tab A fits into slot B...that's the way it was designed... |
As far as I could see, Joo didn't offer his OP as a travel advisory. Your lack of empathy for the two teenagers sticks out like a turd in a punchbowl. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
I agree. It also of no use whatsoever. If you feel a culture is lagging behind in some area of human rights, there are diplomatic ways to try to influence that culture. No one is going to be influenced positively by people who call them barbaric. |
The best way to change/ influence another culture is to provide an enviable, better example that they then want to follow. Then, they can emulate it and pretend it was all their idea, without any loss of face involved (ahem, korea).
japan devoted themselves to modelling itself on the west because we showed we were more powerful, prosperous and successful (Military defeat at the hands of the atom bomb was just part of that ultimate lesson).
The problem with the muslim world is that while they want the progress and prosperity that the western democratic way brings, they are so totally held back by Islam. it is a backward philosophy (in my opinion  ) that owes more to the 7th century than the 21st.
thus..the only use they have for modern western technology is to gradually bomb us all back to that 7th century. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:02 am Post subject: |
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That was a good point about the conflict between cultural relativism and universal human rights. Too much focus on one and you end up condoning all sorts of abhorent practices. Tossing first born children into the fire in sacrifice to Moloch comes to mind. Conversely, too much focus on universal human rights turns into the British Empire running around with Maxim guns bringing their brand of civilization to our little brown brothers.
Seems to me the trick is to find a balance where you allow everyone to choose which end of the egg to crack open but target the slave trade for extinction. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:10 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
There are many in the west who might agree they should not have been hung.
Unhung, maybe. |
Your point?
Next time hang the proponents of Shariah law, Texas.
Have a nice day |
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RachaelRoo
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Anywhere but Ulsan!
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Iran executes gay teenagers
Two gay teenagers were publicly executed in Iran on 19 July 2005 for the 'crime' of homosexuality
ILGA publishes press releases and statements as submitted by its members. Conflicting information has been circulated around this information.On this case, apart from the press release of Outrage below, please also read the statement from other ILGA member IGLHRC.
The youths were hanged in Edalat (Justice) Square in the city of
Mashhad, in north east Iran. They were sentenced to death by Court No.19.
Iran enforces Islamic Sharia law, which dictates the death penalty for gay sex.
Shocking photos of the execution are at the links below
1 2 3
One youth was aged 18 and the other was a minor under the age of 18. They were only identified by their initials, M.A. and A.M.
They admitted to having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defence that most young boys had sex with each other and that they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death.
Prior to their execution, the teenagers were held in prison for 14 months and severely beaten with 228 lashes.
Their length of detention suggests that they committed the so-called offences more than a year earlier, when they were possibly around the age of 16.
Ruhollah Rezazadeh, the lawyer of the youngest boy (under 18 ), had appealed that he was too young to be executed and that the court should take into account his tender age (believed to be 16 or 17). But the Supreme Court in Tehran ordered him to be hanged.
Under the Iranian penal code, girls as young as nine and boys as young as 15 can be hanged.
Three other young gay Iranians are being hunted by the police, but they have gone into hiding and cannot be found. If caught, they will also face execution.
News of the two executions was reported by ISNA (Iranian Students News Agency) on 19 July.
A later news story by Iran In Focus, allegedly based on this original ISNA report, claimed the youths were executed for sexually assaulting a 13 year old boy. But the ISNA report does not mention any sexual assault.
A report of the executions on the website of the respected democratic opposition movement, The National Council of Resistance Of Iran, also makes no reference to a sexual assault.
The allegation of sexual assault may either be a trumped up charge to undermine public sympathy for the youths (a frequent tactic by the Islamist regime in Iran).
Or it may be that the 13 year old was a willing participant but that Iranian law (like UK law) deems that no person of that age is capable of sexual consent and that therefore any sexual contact is automatically deemed in law to be a sex assault.
If the 13 year old was sexually assaulted, why was he not identified and also put on trial (under Iranian law both the victims and perpetrators of sexual crimes are punished)?
Full story in Farsi from ISNA, with three photographs
"This is just the latest barbarity by the Islamo-fascists in Iran"
said Peter Tatchell of the London-based gay human rights group
OutRage!
"The entire country is a gigantic prison, with Islamic rule sustained by detention without trial, torture and state-sanctioned murder.
"According to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979.
"Altogether, an estimated 100,000 Iranians have been put to death over the last 26 years of clerical rule. The victims include women who have sex outside of marriage and political opponents of the Islamist government.
http://www.ilga.org/news_results.asp?LanguageID=1&FileID=675&FileCategory=1&ZoneID=3
"Last August, a 16 year old girl, Atefeh Rajabi, was hanged for 'acts incompatible with chasity.'
"Britain's Labour government is pursuing friendly relations with this murderous regime, including aid and trade. We urge the international community to treat Iran as a pariah state, break off diplomatic relations, impose trade sanctions and give practical support to the democratic and left opposition inside Iran," said Mr Tatchell. |
http://www.ilga.org/news_results.asp?LanguageID=1&FileID=675&FileCategory=1&ZoneID=3 |
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