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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| If things continue the way they are I suppose that would make the democrats eligible for Chinese government funding then. |
Apparently already occurring covertly in Californian, and I suspect, Western Canadian local politics...
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:01 am Post subject: |
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It's amazing in these conversations how people are so willing and eager to whip the CIA on the principle that it's evil to interfere in other nations' affairs, yet, in the very same context, people suffer a complete blackout about Castro's interference, covert action, and intelligence-gathering programs in -- in order -- Caribbean, African, South America, and U.S. affairs...
See, for example, Gleijeses, Conflicting Missions...
When you so righteously pounce on one and ignore the other, that says something about you...
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Where did I say that? {quote Gopher}
| Gopher wrote: |
What if we have friends and allies there who want to do exactly that (change the regime), but cannot without our help? What if other regional govts are asking for help behind the scenes (Colombia)?
Let 'em hang in the wind? Esp. when Chavez is so openly antagonistic to the U.S. and U.S. interests?
I think you do not understand local conditions and how coups work (or don't work) in any case. You have no grasp of the complexities involved in diplomacy and international relations, particularly U.S.-Latin American relations. You're bound to simplistic "good" and "bad" analyses that only work in undergraduate papers... |
You implied it with the above. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
What if we have friends and allies there who want to do exactly that (change the regime), but cannot without our help? What if other regional govts are asking for help behind the scenes (Colombia)?
Let 'em hang in the wind? Esp. when Chavez is so openly antagonistic to the U.S. and U.S. interests?
I think you do not understand local conditions and how coups work (or don't work) in any case. You have no grasp of the complexities involved in diplomacy and international relations, particularly U.S.-Latin American relations. You're bound to simplistic "good" and "bad" analyses that only work in undergraduate papers... |
You implied it with the above. |
I implied no such thing. I do not know whether such a coup d'etat would be a good thing or not. I'm only interested in understanding contexts, and possible motives and outcomes.
If you want to understand why the U.S. might have (still not exactly clear) become involved in influencing Venezuelan affairs, you need to take a very close look at regional diplomacy -- U.S. relations with Venezuela, Venezuela's relations with those neighbors, and those neighbors' relations with the U.S. Once you have this context down (and you're not likely to, because most of them, esp. Venezuela and Cuba, don't declassify dox the way the U.S. does), then you can move into researching U.S. involvement (declassified cables and analyses, etc., not likely to be declassified until 2030 or so).
Once you have a good view of all of this info, then you can cite your evidence and dazzle us.
Until then, it looks to me like your grasping at straws, looking to hang someone in Washington or CIA, and basing almost everything on a press conference, and on what Chavez, his supporters, and Jesse Jackson have said.
Your evidence is a joke. Your intentions are clear. Your conclusions are faulty. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:05 am Post subject: |
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You are rushing to make a moral judgment based on insufficient evidence. You are interested in condemning the United States and defending Chavez/Castro.
Doing so goes beyond trying to understand the event, but takes sides in a larger struggle.
Go get 'em tiger. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| If I am interested in anything it is this, that there won't be another war for regime change. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mithridates"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
And what's this all about then?
http://www.venezuelafoia.info/articulosa2.html
April 25, 2002
New York Times
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National Endowment for Democracy Funded Venezuelan Coup Perpetrators
Someone should tell the NED that a coup is the opposite of democracy
In a stunning revelation the New York Times reported on April 24, 2002 that the US-government funded nonprofit agency called the National Endowment for Democracy - whose board chairman is former Republican Congressman/Super Lobbyist Vin Weber, had funneled more than $877,000 into Venezuela |
The US gave some money to the oppostion in a country where Chavez has a lot more power then they do.
That is not causing a coup |
If things continue the way they are I suppose that would make the democrats eligible for Chinese government funding then. |
Except that the CCP was pulling for Bush  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| If I am interested in anything it is this, that there won't be another war for regime change. |
Absolutely in agreement with you on this point.
Preemptive war, and esp. the Iraqi War, is wrong. The Iraqi War was based on shaky intel and false, indeed fraudulent, premises. Going to war in Venezuela over Chavez would be just as wrong, but more, incredibly stupid and counterproductive for the United States.
In fact, it is so far outside of the realm of what's possible, however, that I don't think you need to worry about it.
CIA -- pushed and prodded by impatient presidents (particularly Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Nixon) -- waged a twenty-five-year subversive warfare campaign against leftist and anti-U.S. Latin American govts from Arbenz to Allende. One consequence of these operations was that Washington undermined its own interest in Latin America and pushed U.S.-Latin American relations back perhaps fifty years (that's what people at State and legislators like Fulbright, who were opposed to operations like PBSUCCESS, warned would happen if CIA were ordered to execute these ops).
The political and bureaucratic aftermath of these ops nearly sunk CIA in the 1970s. As it is, if they are ordered to run covert ops anywhere, the president must order it in writing, under his own signature, in a "finding," and CIA must fully report on this finding to the Senate Select Committee on Intel, and if this committee doesn't like it, it's done. Presidents can no longer unilaterally use CIA like Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Nixon did.
Reagan tried in Nicaragua, and it nearly sunk his presidency.
In the present environment, and I don't know who sits on this bipartisan committee today, I think that Bush has too many enemies in Congress to assume that he could get such a finding by such a committee. Someone would have leaked the finding by now.
Moreover, Washington has a pretty clear understanding that the best way to unite the entire hemisphere against the United States is to run more ops like these 1953-1975 ops, or to revert back to a much earlier era of outright military intervention. The "Yankee-go-home" riots would be devastating to the U.S. position in the hemisphere.
Therefore they could not get away with a modern day intervention in Venezuelan affairs -- and Robertson has just sealed this one for all time; indeed, they should probably assign bodyguards to Chavez, because if he so much as gets sick, CIA will be blamed.
Washington has simply already lost too much ground -- they could not prevent the Chilean representative (Chile is rigidly anti-US in its foreign policy, particularly under its current Socialist president, Lagos) winning the leadership of the OAS over the candidate, I forgot who it was, that they wanted to win, this happened only a couple months ago...
So don't get caught up in Castro and Chavez's hysteria about the U.S. being a hydraheaded monster, controlling everything, everywhere. (Castro survives in Cuba partly because he keeps the "we're not afraid of you!" propaganda machine going, and this unites nationalistic Cubans behind him...) Giving money to opposition politicians and opposition political parties, ethically problematic or not, is likely as much as Washington dares risk in this touchy U.S.-Latin American environment...
By the way, if Washington was indeed involved in the coup, you'd need to cite evidence like this...
http://foia.state.gov/Reports/HincheyReport.asp
http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp
and particularly contemporaneous documents like this...
http://foia.state.gov/documents/PCIA3/00009455.pdf |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| So don't get caught up in Castro and Chavez's hysteria about the U.S. being a hydraheaded monster, controlling everything, everywhere. (Castro survives in Cuba partly because he keeps the "we're not afraid of you!" propaganda machine going, and this unites nationalistic Cubans behind him...) Giving money to opposition politicians and opposition political parties, ethically problematic or not, is likely as much as Washington dares risk in this touchy U.S.-Latin American environment... |
There's an implicit assumption you seem to be making throughout that such intervention is of limited effectiveness. Why's that?
(Wherever the evidence is lacking, you seem to give the US the benefit of the doubt... for example that the US might have influenced Venezualean affairs. Might have? It couldn't help but do so, as the superpower on the doorstep, the most important trading partner and even by its thirst for oil pushing oil prices through the roof, and so giving Chavez money to buy popularity. Even its public attacks on the Venezualean government have been aimed at the Venezualean public - and what about the plans to invade their spectrum with pro-US broadcasts? The US may or may not have had a leading role in the coup, but it's quite clear that it's trying to influence Venezualean affairs.) |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mithridates"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
And what's this all about then?
http://www.venezuelafoia.info/articulosa2.html
April 25, 2002
New York Times
| Quote: |
National Endowment for Democracy Funded Venezuelan Coup Perpetrators
Someone should tell the NED that a coup is the opposite of democracy
In a stunning revelation the New York Times reported on April 24, 2002 that the US-government funded nonprofit agency called the National Endowment for Democracy - whose board chairman is former Republican Congressman/Super Lobbyist Vin Weber, had funneled more than $877,000 into Venezuela |
The US gave some money to the oppostion in a country where Chavez has a lot more power then they do.
That is not causing a coup |
If things continue the way they are I suppose that would make the democrats eligible for Chinese government funding then. |
I don't think the description of the US endowment for democracy for democracy was accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy
Besides Mith Venezuela lacks democratic institutions in the US democrats have real representation and power but in Ven Chavez has a huge advantage over the opposition. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| But not over the media apparently. Not that I should even be on this discussion because I know next to nothing in this area except what I read on Wikipedia yesterday. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:14 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Chavez offers cheap gas to poor in U.S. |
Gopher,
Would you say that he has a "plethora" of cheap gas? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Are gringos falling from the sky? |
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