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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| deadman wrote: |
carte blanche to nuke whoever it wants, establish their "greater Israel"
They definiely could do it. Would they? I don't know, but anythings possible. |
There is no "greater Israel" plot.If that was the plan don't you think they would have done it already? It would hardly have been difficult for them to own half the middle east by now. Israel has strict borders recognised by Jews and decreed in ancient writings and statutes for thousands of years.
I do think theres a "greater caliphate" plan though. probably includes taking over Europe and the West. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| deadman wrote: |
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| So, are conspiracy theories always false? Do you include that in your definition of the word? |
The vast majority of the time they are. The vast majority of the time they are made by those not looking to find answers but to spread disinformation and misinformation for some sick political and social goal |
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Ok, good, you're not dismissing things out of hand because they've been attached with a "conspriacy theory" label. I'd agree with the above point, but its the minority that interest and concern me, and should be the subject of open and honest discussion.
Details aside, I base my speculations on several assumptions we do not share:
1. There is a small group of rich and powerful bankers (eg Rothschild, Rockefellers and the myriad of peopla and organisations subordiante to them) who want more money and power.
2. In order to do this, they want to bring all the world under the control of one party (them).
3. They have no regard for human life and will do whatever it takes to achieve thier goal.
Conspiracy theory, paranoid delusion, intentional misinformation spread by people with an agenda, perhaps? Well, since this subject exists in a media blind spot and is well outside acceptable discussion or research, unless the accuser has been exposed to the same quantity of information I have, I'm going to regard them as less informed than me, and so the accusations shallow and meaningless.
Each to their own.
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| The patriot act would not have been passed if it were not for the 9/11 trauma. Panicking and traumatising a population is the only way you can get them to surrender their freedom without a fight. |
The US already had a similar law called RICO. It makes sense to use the same techniques against terrorists as they government already uses against gangters. |
Well, a gangster is a well defined entity. A terrorist is not, so it doesn't necessarly follow that what's good for one is good for the other, especially when it comes with a huge potential for abuse, and a huge infringement of the rights of every single citizen in the US.
By the way, what's your definition, or understanding of a terrorist?
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| The Patriot act is not particularly severe. Even with it the US is one of the most free and tolerant nations in the world. Other nations have had far more severe laws during times of war. |
Which ones, out of interest?
By state of war, I take it you mean the so called War on Terror? Isn't that more of a police, or security action than actual war? Or was the US already in a time of war, the War on Drugs?
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| You are not even from the US so why do you care so much |
The root problem is the international bankers, so it's not a US problem. Patriot act? Just using it as example of how a traumatised and terrifed public can be taken advantage of, making it one of the most effective vehicles to implement unpopular changes to the status quo.
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| The Rothchilds are the architechts and main beneficiaries of the "New World Order" (Didn't George Bush's father come up w/ that expression.) |
The expression is immaterial. The idea is what matters.
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| Who created Mossad? The Rothschilds (Lord Victor rothschild in particular) |
Is that what David Icke says?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad (Didn't see anything like that there) |
The clandestine machinations of the international bankers during the 20th century are hardly the Wikipedia's area of expertise. It is one of David Icke's areas of expertise, however. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| deadman wrote: |
The clandestine machinations of the international bankers during the 20th century are hardly the Wikipedia's area of expertise. It is one of David Icke's areas of expertise, however. |
And there you have it! Icke is more authoritative a source than Wikipedia! You heard it here first, folks!
Maybe a Goggle-battle would settle the question in a fair and objective manner... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, good, you're not dismissing things out of hand because they've been attached with a "conspriacy theory" label. I'd agree with the above point, but its the minority that interest and concern me, and should be the subject of open and honest discussion. |
sure as long as it is honest and not just intentional misinformation for a sinister or sick poltical goal.
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Details aside, I base my speculations on several assumptions we do not share:
1. There is a small group of rich and powerful bankers (eg Rothschild, Rockefellers and the myriad of peopla and organisations subordiante to them) who want more money and power.
2. In order to do this, they want to bring all the world under the control of one party (them).
3. They have no regard for human life and will do whatever it takes to achieve thier goal.
Conspiracy theory, paranoid delusion, intentional misinformation spread by people with an agenda, perhaps? Well, since this subject exists in a media blind spot and is well outside acceptable discussion or research, unless the accuser has been exposed to the same quantity of information I have, I'm going to regard them as less informed than me, and so the accusations shallow and meaningless.
Each to their own. |
Sounds like a sci fi novel.
[
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| Well, a gangster is a well defined entity. A terrorist is not, so it doesn't necessarly follow that what's good for one is good for the other, especially when it comes with a huge potential for abuse, and a huge infringement of the rights of every single citizen in the US. |
a huge infringment on the right of every citizen in the US?
Not the citizens I know. They aren't complaining. Besides other nations have had much stricter laws during war time. and even w/ the Patriot act the US is one of the most free and tolerent nations in the world.
besides Americans have a right to be safe from terrorists.
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| By the way, what's your definition, or understanding of a terrorist? |
A terrorist would be defined by their methods, what they fight for and their ideology and what they would do in victory.
Al Qaeda is no doubt a terror group. They are also a hate group
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| Which ones, out of interest? |
India when they called a state of emergency. South Korea's Natl security law.
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| By state of war, I take it you mean the so called War on Terror? Isn't that more of a police, or security action than actual war? Or was the US already in a time of war, the War on Drugs? |
No it is a real war.
It is a war on those in the mideast and South Asia who teach hate , incite violence , plan terror, and fund Al Qeade or similar groups.
It is not a war on Muslims ( Millions of muslim Kurds are allies of the US) The Northern alliance are muslims and they too are not the target of the US war.
It is not just one nation but it most certainly is a war.
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| The root problem is the international bankers, so it's not a US problem. Patriot act? Just using it as example of how a traumatised and terrifed public can be taken advantage of, making it one of the most effective vehicles to implement unpopular changes to the status quo. |
Even w/ the patriot act the US is one of the most free natons in the world.
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| The expression is immaterial. The idea is what matters. |
You are right the idea is what matters. It just so happens that is the only place where it exists.
[quote]
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| Who created Mossad? The Rothschilds (Lord Victor rothschild in particular) |
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| The clandestine machinations of the international bankers during the 20th century are hardly the Wikipedia's area of expertise. It is one of David Icke's areas of expertise, however. |
Well he should know- since he says he is the son of god. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here's Icke's views on the current conflict, straight from the horses mouth:
Part 1:
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/2321/47/
Part 2:
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/2346/47/
I do hope you read it all in spite of your instincts to not expose yourself to subversive propaganda. At the very least, you should know your enemy, so you can be prepared for his attacks and make more effective counters.
I also hope you note that, unlike some writers on Rense.com, his criticism of Israel and the Jewish elite does not extend to Jews in general (see the end of part 2) |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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There is a lot of Icke's "summary" of Zionism that I find offensive and off the mark. But there is a lot there, including how Israel was founded by violence and continues to boil in this same blood.....
In particular, he got the media picture right and also how utterly "immoral" Bolton is (and how do we end up with a dispassionate/uncaring guy in this most necessarily passionate, defender of human beings role at the U.N.?)
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It was the neo-con Israel fanatic John Bolton, the 'US' (Illuminati/Israel) Ambassador to the UN, who said this week that there was a 'moral' difference between the deaths of Israeli civilians and those of Lebanese people in the conflict.
'I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts,' he said, and those caused by Israel's 'self-defense'. Behind that statement is the racism that has long been at the heart of American and Israeli policy. But then why shouldn't Israel and its supporters be racist to others when their very state is based on apartheid and racism on a mega scale? |
He also echoes what I keep saying all along. We should stop cooperating, excusing, all those who act in aggression, in concert with death and destruction........also condemn all those who say "hey, this happened X number of years ago, what an atrocity! So nothing wrong with what is happening now!!! " A wrong is a wrong is a wrong, no matter what the historical backdrop, no matter what the beliefs "might" occur in the future.....
I agree with his ending and post it for those who won't read in total.....
DD
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There are idiots and terrorist fanatics on both sides and I have no illusions about the suppression of freedom in Syria or Iran either. It is a case of seeing the big picture in which the monstrous game is being played out and putting the Arab response into its historical context.
It is time for all of us to come together, Arab, Jew, Gentile, whatever name you give yourself. The labels don't matter; they are but diversions, illusions. We are ALL one infinite consciousness caught in a crazy computer game believing it to be real.
What do most Israelis, Arabs, Jews, Gentiles, Chinese, whoever, really want? They want peace and love and harmony in their lives. So let us grasp that together. It is what unites us, this desire for peace, love and freedom. It crosses the delusions of the religious and racial divide. Why should we go on allowing the crazies to deny it to us?
How do we change the world from hatred and war to peace and love?
We must be peaceful and loving and cease to cooperate with the forces of hatred and war.
They can only control us and dictate to us with our cooperation because they are the few and we are the many. We are the power on this planet if only we realised that and expressed it with a passion. The dark eyes and dark suits can only have power through divide and rule. They want us to fight among ourselves, only then can these pathetic people have their wicked way.
As Gandhi said: 'We must be the change we want to see in the world.'
Truer words never spoken.
'I'm ready, what about you? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| deadman wrote: |
Here's Icke's views on the current conflict, straight from the horses mouth:
Part 1:
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/2321/47/
Part 2:
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/2346/47/
I do hope you read it all in spite of your instincts to not expose yourself to subversive propaganda. At the very least, you should know your enemy, so you can be prepared for his attacks and make more effective counters.
I also hope you note that, unlike some writers on Rense.com, his criticism of Israel and the Jewish elite does not extend to Jews in general (see the end of part 2) |
that is what Jeff Rense says.
Anyway those like him go for the big target then go for small target. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Since 1990 David Icke has been on an amazing journey of self and collective discovery to establish the real power behind apparently 'random' world events like 9/11 and the 'war on terrorism'. Here he reveals that a network of interbreeding bloodlines manipulating through their web of interconnecting secret societies have been pursuing an agenda for thousands of years to impose a global centralised fascist state with total control and surveillance of the population.
Over six hours with hundreds of illustrations, David Icke reveals the illusion that is life in this 'physical' reality. How is this 'world' - a provable illusion - just a lucid dream? How do we create it and how can we change the dream to one that we would like to experience?
Click here to order now |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Lebanon has a pop. of 4 million people. its only 26% that are shiites and support hesbollah. |
This headline - http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14207059/ - happened to remind me of your BS of several days ago. What's the new spin - that now Israel's justified in obliterating Lebanon because they've caused the vast majority to rally around the only organisation capable of defending it? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| Lebanon has a pop. of 4 million people. its only 26% that are shiites and support hesbollah. |
This headline - http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14207059/ - happened to remind me of your BS of several days ago. What's the new spin - that now Israel's justified in obliterating Lebanon because they've caused the vast majority to rally around the only organisation capable of defending it? |
The article says that half of Lebanese supported hisbollah prior to the aggression. Thats a pretty significant % don't you think? That is to say, 50% of the population were committed to the destruction of israel and ammassing weapons and missiles. Reason enough to put Israel on the defensive?
What justification did hesbollah have? None.
None. Israel fully withdrew from lebanon a long time ago. there is no occupation.
Israel has a total of 4 lebanese prisoners, one of them convicted of murdering a 12 year old Israeli girl. Hardly a good reason to mould a massive militia against a peaceful neighbor, over a decade.
The occupation of the sheba farms? This tiny area never belonged to lebanon but was formerly Syrias. Israel has already said they are happy to relinquish it. So whats the problem?
You've fallen for the propoganda, another islamic stooge: congratulate yourself. You support a foreign terrorist group that was installed into lebanon by Syria.
Israel is about ensuring its own survival, pretty simple. Bombing infrastructure to disable hisbollah is legitimate. Bombing civilian areas where hesbollah has cowardly installed itself is a sad necessity. years of experience of islamic fighters using human shields has led to this. Unfortunately civilians are a by-casualty, but they had a 50% chance of being hisbollah anyhow. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Israel's bombing campaign started with bombing a civilian airport. How much less justified could their anti-guerrilla campaign start out as?
You've shown that you have no understanding of the nature of Hizbullah's support, to the extent that you're willing to damn Hizbullah on the basis that few Lebanese support it while in the next breath damn Lebanon on the basis that most Lebanese support it. Is there a self-contradictory Zionist logic that's a distant cousin of Korean logic? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Israel's bombing campaign started with bombing a civilian airport. How much less justified could their anti-guerrilla campaign start out as?
You've shown that you have no understanding of the nature of Hizbullah's support, to the extent that you're willing to damn Hizbullah on the basis that few Lebanese support it while in the next breath damn Lebanon on the basis that most Lebanese support it. Is there a self-contradictory Zionist logic that's a distant cousin of Korean logic? |
While I haven't read Juniors posts closely (and am too tired to read over them right now), I'd like to note the following:
1. "civilian airport"? Come on. It is the most important airport in Lebanon for both civilian and non-civilian use. The Israelis bombed the runways, that is it. Why? To prevent air shipments from Iran and Syria to land.
2. Few vs. most. Perhaps "significant minority" is what Junior was going for. Or perhaps he was saying the Shia of Lebanon support Hizballah while only a few Sunni and Christian lebanese do. I'll leave it to him to clarify though.
3. If that's your own rebuttal (pointing out that one error on Junior's part), then I'd say you don't have much of an argument. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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1. Lebanon shares a land border with Syria; why would they be sending heavy shipments by air?
2. Hizbullah is to be damned because only 26% of Lebanese support it and Lebanon is to be damned becaue most of it supports Hizbullah? There's something just a bit specious in this reasoning.
3. If Israel's 'defence' against terrorists is to bomb the civilian infrastructure or neighbouring countries it doesn't have much of an argument. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Yu_Bum_suk"]
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| 1. Lebanon shares a land border with Syria; why would they be sending heavy shipments by air? |
The blockade is of air, sea and land, to stop the transfer of weapons and terrorists to hesbollah. Israeli ships now patrol lebanese waters, they've blown up road links and the airport was supposedly being used to fly in weapons too. Considering hesbollah has a strong hold in the Lebanese govt and that before hostilities some 50% of lebanese supported hesbollah, its not hard to believe Israeli intelligence when they say the airport was being used to for this.
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| Hizbullah is to be damned because only 26% of Lebanese support it and Lebanon is to be damned becaue most of it supports Hizbullah? There's something just a bit specious in this reasoning. |
Well there are different sources and polls claiming to show the extent of support for HB.
"87 percent of Lebanese support Hizbullah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0728/p06s01-wome.html
So thats a 50% support before hostilities, an 85% support now.
I'll admit my earlier quote of 26% was drawn from a Lebanese blog, obviously wrong except in its description of ethnic mix.
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| If Israel's 'defence' against terrorists is to bomb the civilian infrastructure or neighbouring countries it doesn't have much of an argument. |
You think terrorists don't use civilian infrastructure?
Everywhere they've bombed, Israel has dropped leaflets warning residents to move out beforehand. How then can you blame them for civilian deaths later? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| 1. Lebanon shares a land border with Syria; why would they be sending heavy shipments by air? |
When all land routes have been eliminated perhaps? Hmmm.. tough to figure that one out.
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| 3. If Israel's 'defence' against terrorists is to bomb the civilian infrastructure or neighbouring countries it doesn't have much of an argument. |
I assume you mean OF neighboring countries. As Junior noted, Hizballah uses the same infrastructure. Hell, Hizballah created a lot of it. That "hospital" in Balabakk? According to locals it was a front for Hizballah. The "atrocity" in Qana? Turned out the building was structurally wrong to begin with and collapsed hours after the bombing.
Hizballah and its supporters are merely reaping what they've sown for the past few years. |
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