Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Rteacher]

You're just juggling words. The clear meaning of my statement is that scientists make the underlying assumption that there is no God. Such an assumption is clearly not testable (by material means...) Whether the scientists claim that it's testable -or not (or publicize their assumption...) is beside the point...

[laogaiguk]

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

I was referring specifically to theories that life originally evolved from matter which assume that consciousness must be an emergent physical property - when actually, in its pure state, consciousness is spiritual and it is due to the presence of a non-material soul...

There is absolutely no proof that consciousness has a material cause, and life has never been observed to evolve from dead matter - life always comes from life...

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

Just because there's a "tie" between parts of the brain (or chemical activity...) and altered states of consciousness doesn't necessary indicate a causal relationship. There would also be similar correlations if the consciousness used the brain as a very sophisticated instrument. If the brain is physically or chemically altered there would be less (or more) consciousness perceived within a specific body. Even if a person is "brain dead" (don't look at me... ) there would still be some consciousness within the body as long as the heart can beat on its own (indicating that the soul hasn't departed that body yet...)

[mindmetoo]

[Rteacher]

You're not stating anything new - You can obviously see a physical precipitating cause, but you can't see the underlying spiritual cause. Eventually, conceptual advances would need to be made to the physical world view of science in order to recognize the spirit-soul:

In the theoretical structure of modern physics, however, there is presently no place for such a conception of the mind and the ethereal element (although some physicists have begun to tentatively entertain such ideas.) As a consequence, scientists still generally adhere to the idea that it is impossible for the brain to interact with a distinct "nonphysical" mind. This in turn makes it impossible for them to give credence to many phenomena which imply the existence of such a mind, even though empirical evidence for these phenomena has existed for many years. These include the psychic phenomena studied by the parapsychologists, out of body experiences, and the spontaneous remembrance of previous incarnations by small children.

http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~ghi/vcchap.html

Actually, all that would logically be required to prove the existence of the soul is at least one confirmed out-of-body (OBE) experience - or spontaneous remembrance of a previous birth by a small child...

I have already answered your repeated requests to produce a yogi willing to do magic tricks by explaining that such yogic practice is practically impossible in this cosmic age (which began around 5000 years ago...) Previously, the atmosphere on earth was much less disturbed and polluted, and conditions were much more conducive for the type of meditation required. One of the qualifications was that the yogi had to be a lifetime celibate - never having lost any semen... That would pretty much eliminate most everyone around these days (except for some great sages residing in remote spots in the Himalayas ...)

These sites give some discussion of mystic siddhis and such:
http://www.bvashram.org/articles/98/1/Siddhis,-Riddhis-and-Mystical-Experiences
http://www.trsiyengar.com/id59.html
http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/~ghi/vcchap.html

[mindmetoo]

[fiveeagles]

Sorry for the delay in posting, but things are getting really busy. Don't have much time.

[Hans Blix]

[mindmetoo]

[gang ah jee]

[Rteacher]

Once again, "Mindmetoo" tries to lump together and trash all people with faith in something beyond material science. People desparately searching for miraculous cures for their children or other loved ones will naturally seek help from both medical science and God.

In most instances, people will apparently not be cured by either. Wise people understand that material/medical science has its limits. They also understand that everything happens for a reason known ultimately only by the unlimited, omniscient person...

Here's an article from the local San Antonio paper that appeared early on, before the specific "rational" explanations surfaced:

Cary Clack: Water-gushing tree proves that faith is individual

Web Posted: 08/16/2006 08:45 PM CDT

San Antonio Express-News

In the 1948 movie "The Miracle of the Bells," Fred MacMurray plays a press agent who tries to create publicity for a young actress who has died before the release of her film. During her funeral, religious statues in a Catholic church turn and face her casket to the amazement of the congregation.
The priest, played by a young Frank Sinatra, rushes to the church basement where, after careful examination of the foundation, he explains to MacMurray that a shifting of the earth was responsible for the statues' movement.

MacMurray tells the priest that however logical the reason, the people in the church will always believe they'd witnessed a miracle.

I believe in miracles: angels, ghosts and life on other planets. But I also believe that there are usually logical explanations for things that, initially, can't be explained.

Often, what appears to be supernatural may actually be natural, albeit rare.

I'm fairly confident that there's a scientific reason why the large red oak in Lucille Pope's backyard has been spouting water since April. Whatever reason is the correct one doesn't detract from the unusual sight of a tree leaking like a hose.

Since the story of the Leaking Tree appeared under Vincent T. Davis' byline last Friday and in this column space on Tuesday, the newspaper has received a tidal wave of very plausible explanations as to why the tree does what it does.

They are so good and there are so many that I'm sure one of them is the right one.

More numerous than calls and e-mails trying to explain the tree are calls and e-mails from people seeking its help. They don't see the tree as a curiosity, but as a religious symbol that may possess healing powers.

This e-mail, signed, "Desperate Sister," read, "I am desperately writing to you because the only family I have is my sick sister. She has ovarian cancer and no insurance. I am desperately asking you to ask this family to permit me to take my sister there so that she could drink some of this water to see if her cancer goes away. I cannot live without her because we are very close and I would do anything to see her well."

People want the tree's water for ailments such as arthritic legs and a sister-in-law's bad arm.

Among the people who have been showing up at the Pope house were a mother and 5-year-old son who has a potentially fatal disease. Seeking a healing for the child, they flew in from Pennsylvania to touch the tree and its water.

This is when the phenomenon of the leaking tree that has attracted national and international attention is no longer simply a strange and amusing sideshow; something fun to wonder and talk about.

For many of us, the leaking tree is a pleasant distraction from real world problems. But for many others, it's a possible solution to their real world problems.

When I watched the newscast of the mother and her son at the tree, I felt profoundly sad. I was sad that the child is so sick and sad that his mother is so desperate that she has to make herself and him believe in the healing powers of water from a tree.

And yet, who am I to judge her? To say that she's misguided? If I had a child or sister gravely ill, I'd probably do the same thing.

Faith is personal, and where someone may place his or her faith isn't where I would place mine.

People seek hope in the divine and the secular, from prayer and pilgrimage, to wishing on stars and tossing coins into wells. We're often in search of miracles in our lives and in this world.

A tree that continuously pours out water is a wondrous thing to behold, however understandable and scientific the reason.

If its wonders are taken beyond its gnarled surface, that may symbolize just how desperate some are for a miracle.

May they find those miracles wherever they need to. http://www.mysanantonio.com/salife/stories/MYSA081706.01P.clack.f65b66.html

[mindmetoo]