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Utah gunman, 18, was Muslim from Bosnia
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Quote:

[No, you don't seem to care when Chechnyan civilians get killed. I never saw you mention Bosnians or Chechnyan civilians. Why? That is very bad, man.

Are you sure? I never see you post about the third world conditions Indians in Canada live in. That must mean you don't care about Indians in Canada. Maybe you are Indianophopic, or anti-Indian. Dude, grow some compassion? Don't you refer to yourself as an intellectual?

Quote:

[No, man. Saying you are anti-Nazi doesn't mean anything if you do not mention the fact that Bosnians died in mass graves, Srebrenica, Chechnyan women have been raped ad nauseum, Grozny was bombed like crazy. That is far worse than the stuff you have posted about, but I never see you mention these people. Why don't you do some research into what the Russians did in Chechnya if you want to talk about terrorism. Yes, I am aware of Beslan, but we hear about Beslan but not about Grozny.

Grozny has nothing to do with anything I post about. You are trying to change the subject to something you feel comfortable discussing (cause you apparently are fully totally ignorant with islam). I do not think that America should have done anything then. That is the backyard of Europe. America should keep to herself. As should the rest of the world.

I'm actually very well aware about Chechnya. Disgusting. But what does that have to do with terrorism in America? Nothing. Totally nothing. If that is the big issue the frothing types are on about, they should focus their anger at Russia. It has fully nothing to do with us.

BTW, when America was bombing Yugo, who were they trying to protect???

Quote:

[So you are against Islam. Why do you have to post ad nauseum about your jihad or crusade against Islam. We get it.

I actually post about quite a bit of things. Take a trip down memory lane, via the search function, to see the wide variety of topics that I have started in the past month. Some have to do with islam, but I try to keep it balanced. People only ever argue with me about islam, so I'm forced to reply about it more than other subjects, like Chavez, who is my next favorite punching bag. Now, if big_bird is willing to get off her cowardly arse and openly start supporting Chavez again, well, I'll have fun with her instead.

BTW, mo' married a 7 year old. Not 15, not 13. 7. And anybody who does it is a bloody freak. BUT, I will only be attacked for pointing out that the "profit" did it.

Quote:

[It doesn't show. Aren't you following an intolerant religion yourself

Yes, my 'religion' is very intolerant. Very, very, very, very. I do not believe that tolerance is a virtue, because, well, I'm not a total idiot. As in, The Idiot. That aside, I've never hidden that I'm intolerant of lots of things, including islam, but not exclusively islam. If you believe in the value of individual human life, then I am tolerant of you. If you don't, I'm not. Simple equation.

Quote:

Saying you are anti-Nazi and ignoring crimes committed against Muslims or focusing on the suffering of others in the world shows an obsession that you've had for a very long time.

I have an obsession with what will be the single largest issue in the West in the next 100 years. Europe is at a crossroads of being assimilated or violently ejecting the imperialists. Canada, now, has as the second largest growing group muslims. We need to wake the *beep* up to the Borg in our midst.

Focusing on the suffering of others? Please. I've railed about Iraq many a time on this site. Also NKorea, and Cuba, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Chechnya, Russia, America, Canada, Sudan, and many, many others. Again, it is only when I slam islam that the multicult hounds come out.

Quote:

You are trying to cover up by your ommission genocide, warcrimes committed against a people.

What omission? Dude, are you high, like, right now? A guy kills people in a mall in America for what seems to be likely jihadist reasons, and all the non-muslims fall over themselves to cover up the truth, and I'm supposed to talk about a war in Bosnia? Get a grip.

If tolerance is your highest virtue, I have an issue with YOU, even more than islam.

Produce for us a police report, a credible report from a worthy news organization rather than fishing on a Serbian website otherwise it is like quoting from a neo-nazi website about Jewish history. I'm waiting. I will give you the benefit of the doubt if I see a credible site. He could have gone religiously on the deep-end theoretically. However, you posted an article from a sectarian website that has no love for Bosnians. Anyway, part of the reason the Middle East is the mess it is thanks to colonialism. The Middle East was not so radicalized in the past. It became so. Yes, there were always radical elements, and terrorism was encouraged by Wahhabism and other fanatical elements, but the political situation of encouraging that by the Saudis and others did contribute to that, but they had to have a fertile ground for it in terms of the global arena. Iraq is an example of that. Of course, the people of the East are responsible for their actions, but you don't seem to think the West is as well. It is like saying Rwanda was only about African savagery and nothing to do with France or the West.

The threat was created when they felt threatened. That isn't the whole story, but it is part of it. When one side is pummeled by various empires they are eventually going to have a very negative reaction. The Croatians massacred Serbians after they got massacred. When people get killed, they kill. Ever heard of Pearl Harbor? I am not high. You haven't posted about the death of civilians in Lebanon. The loss of the civilians in that mall was very tragic, but I don't recall you posting anything about the death of civilians in Lebanon killed by the IAF or IDF.

I'll wait for a credible police report stating what you are alleging about the Bosnian. I am not saying you are definitely wrong, but a sectarian source does look bad. When you make economic analyses you need several reports, credible data. Produce credible data about this Bosnian guy, and I will say you were right or just say "I am sorry on this way I fall short", and I will say no problem. I just want concrete proof.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Of course, the people of the East are responsible for their actions, but you don't seem to think the West is as well.

I don't have time to respond to all right now, but, adventurer, seriously, are you able to fucking read? Can you read? Like, are you in korea on a fake diploma?

I have said time and time and time and time and time and time again that they hate us for two reasons. 1) WE KEEP INVADING THEIR NATIONS. 2) WE ARE NOT MUSLIM.

I surely hope that I will not have to deal with your stupid assertions that I'm blindly unable to see the violence the West has given to the world, and the lingering and deep effects as such.

I seriously doubt your intelligence now. Very much. How many god damn times do I have to tell you the same thing before it sinks in? Eh? You need, now, to demonstrate to me your ability to get past your idea that because I dislike islam, I must be a cheerleader for French colonial experiences, or the IDF in the west bank. I just don't think I can take you seriously otherwise.

I'm still waiting for you to post about the third-world conditions on Indian reservations in Canada.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:54 am Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Quote:

Of course, the people of the East are responsible for their actions, but you don't seem to think the West is as well.

I don't have time to respond to all right now, but, adventurer, seriously, are you able to *beep* read? Can you read? Like, are you in korea on a fake diploma?

[Pardon me, but you are supposed to capitalise proper nouns. Also, if you are questioning my ability to read, then I am sure you could read that a site you were using as a source was a Serbian site to bolster an argument you were trying to make that a Bosnian was an Islamist. I said, if you read, you could be right, but you have not provided proof. Your methods are ad hoc and unempirical. My comment was rather fair. I want empirical, fair statement regarding any group whether black people, hindus, Jews, or Muslims. I am against prejudice directed against Jews, blacks, but I don't mind mind cultural criticism of any group.

I have said time and time and time and time and time and time again that they hate us for two reasons. 1) WE KEEP INVADING THEIR NATIONS. 2) WE ARE NOT MUSLIM.

[Who is they? You are saying most Muslims hate Christians. You need to clarify when you say they. As far as invading their nations, some have been invaded. I am glad you admitted that. You were making it seem as if there was some religiously based hatred and that was all there was to it.

I surely hope that I will not have to deal with your stupid assertions that I'm blindly unable to see the violence the West has given to the world, and the lingering and deep effects as such.

[Show me the post you made about Lebanese civilians getting killed. I don't recall seeing it. Produce the website. You did go on about how a Bosnian killed civilians in America and simply put it down to religion even though about the killing fields in Bosnja by paramilitarias from Srpska. Deaths of all civilians are important, but your calculus includes only victims of Muslims. I am asking you to be more considerate of people who have suffered the world over and try to see how people can come together to combat radicalism among all groups and build bridges.
That is not being PC for me, that is building bridges while watching your back.

I seriously doubt your intelligence now. Very much. How many god damn times do I have to tell you the same thing before it sinks in? Eh? You need, now, to demonstrate to me your ability to get past your idea that because I dislike islam, I must be a cheerleader for French colonial experiences, or the IDF in the west bank. I just don't think I can take you seriously otherwise.

[Should it matter to me that you doubt my intelligence? Who are you, BJWD? If you go on about a Bosnian and quote a Serbian site to find something against the Bosnian gunman that is not a proper attempt to construct an argument. So let's not talk about intelligence here.
Trying to question my intelligence sounds pathetic.

I'm still waiting for you to post about the third-world conditions on Indian reservations in Canada.

[I have actually posted on the internet before about the injustices vis-a-vis Indians. One of my dear friends in Canada was a Miq Maq.
I have been quite kind to the Indians I have met in Canada. Canada has nothing to do with whatever we are talking about. I never was in an argument over whites versus Indians which would be similar to your argumentation in this thread. So your point is a red herring.

You still did not post something that says the police heard him (the Bosnian) say allahu akbar, so we can see that you were right, to give you the proper benefit of the doubt. You did read me make that request and ask for that.

Last edited by Adventurer on Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject:

It is interesting, they way you have be trained to argue.

We know

1) He behaved as a soon-to-be martyr. Telling his girl it was going to be "the best day of his life". They is solidly in line with crazy muslims and their crazy belief that jihad means heaven. The greatest, most wonderful thing a muslim can do for allah is to kill/die for him.

2) He was deeply impacted by jihadist imagery.

3) The msm has a habit of ignoring the religious aspect of "sudden jihad syndrome".

4) The "neo-nazi" site (I love how you fresh out of undergrad types are only able to attack sources using "nazi", can't you be a bit more inventive? How about neo-Mussolinni?) was a report on an article from a conservative (mainstream American conservative) web-news site.

Quote:

March 16, 2007 - San Francisco, CA - PipeLineNews.org - Facts have emerged in this case which prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Bosnian Muslim immigrant's rampage at a Utah shopping mall, killing five people is a textbook study of a jihadist attack.

Just a day before the murders Talovic told his 17 year old Bosnian girlfriend Monika, with whom he had discussed marriage plans that he was involved in a dark plot.

"Something is going to happen tomorrow that you'll never be able to forgive me about" Talovic's girlfriend told the Salt Lake Times adding that "It was supposed be the happiest day of his life and that it could only happen once in a lifetime." [source Trolley Shooting: Even to the girl he loved, Talovic a mystery to the end, http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_5431036]

Monica also revealed a "vision" that Talovic had while in Bosnia:

"One evening, "as the sun was falling," Talovic heard a horse outside of his family's home in Bare, where they lived after they left Talovici. He walked out and, standing before him was a white horse "with two beautiful eyes," he told Monika.

'And he said, 'Look,' and his aunt [who was also outside] couldn't see it there,'' Monika said. It was at that moment she knew he was a "good-souled" person.

''He thought of it as only 'good-souled people' could see happiness and goodness,'' she said."

Two of these points are extremely significant in understanding Talovic's motivation; his statement that the mall attack would be his "happiest day" and the invocation of the "white horse" motif, as both are tied to Islamic thinking regarding jihad.

According to the The West Point Combatting Terrorism Center's section on Islamic imagery, the meaning of the white horse symbol is directly related to jihad:

"The white horse is inextricably tied to conceptions of the prophet, martyrdom, and paradise (heaven). It is most often associated with the Prophet Muhammad's miraj or night journey to heaven, when the Prophet ascended to heaven on the back of a white horse. In this regard, the white horse most specifically evokes notions of the afterlife and the heavenly paradise awaiting pious Muslims (or jihadi martyrs) upon their death. White horses are also important in the Shiite tradition, in regards to their association with the aforementioned traditions and in regards to the Imam Husayn and his martyrdom at Karbala in the 7th century (where he is said to have ridden a white horse). Thus, in both Sunni and Shiite traditions, the white horse is strongly associated with martyrdom and the expectation of heavenly paradise. In the images selected, the white horses are associated with images of individual jihadi martyrs. Used in this manner, the white horse evokes the righteousness of these individuals' martyrdom, and reminds the audience that these men have been granted the martyr's promised reward of ascension to heavenly paradise. [source http://www.ctc.usma.edu/imagery_nature.asp#whitehorse]

Talovic's expression to his girlfriend that his killing spree would be the happiest day of his life is consistent with an understanding of the central function of jihad in Islam. It stands to reason that an incipient jihadist would regard the day of his "exploits" with great anticipation:

"There is perhaps no greater inspiration for jihadi activists than the belief that they will be rewarded for their sacrifice by being granted entrance into the garden (janna) of heavenly paradise. Symbols and images may allude to paradise indirectly or directly. The word used to indicate heaven, janna, also means "garden" and indicates the garden of paradise that awaits those Muslims who have lived particularly just, obedient, and pious lives. Janna is an important and well-developed notion in Islamic discourse. It is mentioned in the Koran and is often used to describe the rewards awaiting those Muslims who have died (or will die) as martyrs." [source http://www.ctc.usma.edu/imagery_warfare.asp]

Contrary to claims made by Talovic's family, his girlfriend stated that he had a contact at the local mosque, which is located immediately adjacent to the scene of Sulejman's carnage.

"I don't know if he was his friend, but he liked to talk to him" she said. They only saw each other at services in the mosque. They only saw each other like three or four times."

Sulejman's father's continued insistence that someone put his son up to the killings [while denying his son's had any friends at the mosque] seem to be an effort to shield the Al Noor Masjid from law enforcement scrutiny.

It is becoming increasingly clear that Talovic's family has been less than forthcoming about his level of Islamic observance and other details of his life, to the point of Sulejman's family even denying that their son owned any guns. [source http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2732]

Such a contention flies in the face of the fact that two of Talovics cousins told the Salt Lake City Tribune that they had seen the shotgun and revolver in the basement of the family home, together with the backpack and ammunition used on the rampage and that they had even handled the weapons fully six weeks before the attack. [source http://www.sltrib.com/ci_5439745]

The reason for this obfuscation seems clear at this point, the shootings at the Trolley Square Mall were the result of Muslim terrorism, a premeditated act of jihad by Sulejman Talovic.

Additionally, it appears that the Talovic family is not unfamiliar with acts of domestic jihad. A March 5, 2002 article in the New York Times details how the cousin of Sulejman's Amir Omerovic has admitted to participating in threats to spread anthrax.

"A man pleaded guilty yesterday to mailing letters falsely threatening to infect their recipients with anthrax. The defendant, Amir Omerovic, a 28-year-old naturalized citizen from Bosnia now living in Derby, admitted in Federal District Court that in late October he sent such letters to the offices of Gov. John G. Rowland, the United States Coast Guard and Marines in Connecticut, and the Judicial Review Council in Hartford. [source http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903E4D61730F936A35750C0A9649C8B63]

Based on these facts law enforcement must quit denying what is now obvious and start re-investigating this matter for what it is, an example of domestic terrorism.

Talovic's family and the surrounding Salt Lake City Bosnian/Muslim community have engaged in a campaign of disinformation indicating that they may be witholding vital information from law enforcement.

The public must demand a full inquiry, including a full investigation into the Al Noor Mosque.

The family's obviously still strong ties to Bosnia also warrant a thorough probing, as do the jihadi websites which have been reported as having received considerable traffic from Utah based Muslims.

If Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson and Police Chief Chris Burbank are really concerned about serving the public interest they should cease the multicultural farce in which they are currently engaged [displaying dhimmi levels of "solidarity" with the local Bosnian Muslim community along the way] and spend more time trying to ascertain if there are more Sulejman Talovics among them, since it is now evident that his murderous rage was entirely consistent with an act of jihad.

�1999-2007 Beila Rabinowitz, William A. Mayer, PipeLineNews.org LLC, all rights reserved.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject:

[quote="BJWD"]It is interesting, they way you have be trained to argue.

We know

1) He behaved as a soon-to-be martyr. Telling his girl it was going to be "the best day of his life". They is solidly in line with crazy muslims and their crazy belief that jihad means heaven. The greatest, most wonderful thing a muslim can do for allah is to kill/die for him.

2) He was deeply impacted by jihadist imagery.

3) The msm has a habit of ignoring the religious aspect of "sudden jihad syndrome".

4) The "neo-nazi" site (I love how you fresh out of undergrad types are only able to attack sources using "nazi", can't you be a bit more inventive? How about neo-Mussolinni?) was a report on an article from a conservative (mainstream American conservative) web-news site.

Quote:

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=saltlake31607.htm

But, adventurer, if you want proof on if he said "Allah-hu Akbar" you are welcome to listen to it yourself.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507
The sound is better on this video, but you can't follow the time.
http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]

two times at 1:38-1:40. He says "allah allah".[/quote

Thanks for the video. That's what I wanted. The article, however, is full of speculation. Let's be empirical. He is a Bosnian, probably lost relatives in a war, and felt Christians were his enemy for some reason.
Could it be connected with the ethnic cleansing by Serbians.
Should the mosque be investigated? Sure, why not. Does it mean the mosque is guilty just because he frequented it? We don't have enough information to indict a mosque or its worshippers nor can we generalize Bosnian Muslims to be fanatical. One of my good friends was half Serbian and half Bosnian. His mother was a Bosnian Muslim and his father was a Serbian. There were many such mixed marriages. Bosnians are generally known to be tolerant. Should people be at the look out for fanatical Islamists? Absolutely. Are most Muslims Bosnian or otherwise in America a threat to America. There is no such evidence.
That is what I was saying.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject:

Quote:

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=saltlake31607.htm

But, adventurer, if you want proof on if he said "Allah-hu Akbar" you are welcome to listen to it yourself.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8dbc5_4507
The sound is better on this video, but you can't follow the time.
http://kutv.com/video/[email protected]

two times at 1:38-1:40. He says "allah allah".[/quote

Thanks for the video. That's what I wanted. The article, however, is full of speculation. Let's be empirical. He is a Bosnian, probably lost relatives in a war, and felt Christians were his enemy for some reason.
Could it be connected with the ethnic cleansing by Serbians.

Should the mosque be investigated? Sure, why not. Does it mean the mosque is guilty just because he frequented it? We don't have enough information to indict a mosque or its worshippers nor can we generalize Bosnian Muslims to be fanatical. One of my good friends was half Serbian and half Bosnian. His mother was a Bosnian Muslim and his father was a Serbian. There were many such mixed marriages. Bosnians are generally known to be tolerant. Should people be at the look out for fanatical Islamists? Absolutely. Are most Muslims Bosnian or otherwise in America a threat to America. There is no such evidence.
That is what I was saying. I didn't say you were wrong about him saying allahu akbar. I wanted the evidence. Keep in mind most Bosnians are decent people. A Lebanese Catholic church was torched in California after Sept.11. Should we condemned American Euro-Caucasians as intolerant radicals whole-sale because of it or monitor radical white groups?

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject:

To be totally honest, I don't even care if he was a muslim and doing it for muslims reasons. I just strongly despise the way the media treats these crimes. Anytime a mulim does something the whole media goes into "protect islam" mode. I expect young muslim men to do random crazy violent stuff. Fine. I also expect media to report honestly on it. And they constantly refuse to do so. If this had been a crazy, young Christian man who was shooting up an abortion clinic, you can bet your ass that his religion would have (rightly) been dragged through the mud. I want equality. Maybe, I'm more egalitarian than the egalitarians. Anyways, I'm done with this topic.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:27 am Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

To be totally honest, I don't even care if he was a muslim and doing it for muslims reasons. I just strongly despise the way the media treats these crimes. Anytime a mulim does something the whole media goes into "protect islam" mode.

I expect young muslim men to do random crazy violent stuff. Fine. I also expect media to report honestly on it. And they constantly refuse to do so. If this had been a crazy, young Christian man who was shooting up an abortion clinic, you can bet your ass that his religion would have (rightly) been dragged through the mud. I want equality. Maybe, I'm more egalitarian than the egalitarians.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic.

That is fair enough and the media should have reported on Binladin before 9/11 long before it happened which reporters wanted reported but their executives kept stymying them. I have no problem with facts portrayed in a judicious manner.

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