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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| You are not a vegetarian, then. Why did it take you 6 pages and counting before blurting out this confession? |
Hmmm. . .I thought I had. But I guess not. I did say, however, that I have killed for food and would do so again.
That aside, by Korean standards, I'm a veggie! But, as another poster pointed out, the right word is pescatarian. http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/g/Pescatarian.htm
I have maintained a vegetarian diet, though I've never gotten milk out of the picture. In America, it was much easier to buy the brands of milk which did not abuse as the others do.
I'm always re-thinking my position, trying to fuse together the elements of yogic philosophy (ahimsa or non-violence) with a scientific world view. I am slowly hammering out a philosophy of diet which I can ethically and spiritually maintain. Having debates such as this helps me to devlelop my position while bringing the issue to the awareness of others.
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| I am not a vegetarian, and even I can tell you are unqualified to attempt to speak for vegetarians, which seems to be what this thread is all about - and I have to say, even from the start it seemed a bit cheeky of you to try to speak for ALL vegetarians and help the rest of us omnivores "understand" you all ... jeeze louise, when I think of all the grief and epithets I've bought for myself for making generalizations about vegetarians, even when I could point to specific times places and people, etc., and here you are speaking for them without having the credentials to do so. Aigo. |
Well, i like the tongue-in-cheek tone you use while making this jab; but I have maintained a vegetarian diet before. I only changed to allowing fish into my diet so as to not completely isolate myself in a culture when connection with others was so important for my goals and personal happiness. I tried to use the veggie cookbooks I brought with me, yet the little kitchen I have, the shopping around for mysterious ingredients, took up all the time I needed for other projects I had. So, after some serious thought, a made a concession. The point, however, it that the choice was thought out. I'm still thinking it out. I may maintain a certain level of sea-food in my diet for the long-haul, but the primary source of my nutrition is vegetable. So, you will find this is in perfect keeping with the argument I've presented.
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| Inasmuch as it sounds like the basic thesis of liberalism, I'm bound to concur, for the most part. |
I'm not sure why you'd fear a term of which the root is "liber."
Edit: I just read this again. I see I misread you. I didn't read "Inasmuch as" before, but assumed some other word.
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| However, I'm dubious about whether showing people pictures of critters bellowing in pain in slaughterhouses will change people's habits - hasn't worked on me, so far - or whether it will simply cause people to ask that such places be regulated more carefully than is now the case. Most people are just going to say, yes, yes, death is ugly stuff and that's why I pay other people to be soldiers, policemen, and abattoir workers ... |
If I am successful in making a person think, even just a little, I've made them think. Yet, there are a great many people who have not been exposed to the cold reality and are affected deeply by such scenes. Then, they turn around and irritate the *beep* out of guys like you!
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| While we're at it, can you get back and cite some specific instances of compassionate behavior among animals, social or otherwise? Seem to recall that you asserted it as a natural fact, but I tend to side with Dawkins when he says that it doesn't happen, and that what we think of as compassionate behavior is actually selection-enhancement carried over to kinship groups (or, in the case oif a dog that rescues a child, a wrongly-perceived kniship group). |
I'm not sure that Dawkins says that it doesn't happen. My copy of The Selfish Gene is in America. I think he rather argues that the basis of compassion or altruism is selfish. Moreover, he argues that we can develop compassion, even if in the final analysis it is a 'misfire' of the genes, and this may in fact be highly desirable. Contradict me if i am wrong.
I'll see if I can't find an example, if I find a little time.
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| Think back. My question was: why should humans use compassion as a criteria for food choice regarding animals when this is not a criteria that anmials employ themselves? |
Insofar as a human being is a modification of nature, then nature is compassionate. But does compassion extend beyond humans?
Another approach. Since we are self-aware and able to project the consequences of our personal choices, we should use compassion as a criterion to at least this extent. I have compassion for my kin, and perhaps even for the fate of my fellow humans. Since the consequences of my choices affects the eco-systems on which they are dependent, then my compassion for either their actual or hypothetical and probable sufferring should lead me to chose in a way that minimizes that sufferring.
If, in addition, my treatment of animals--either directly or indirectly--is a reflection of my compassion in general, and my behavior tends to diminish or numb me to that quality of character, it follows that I will be less compassionate in general. If, on the other hand, I cultivate compassion, my kin and kind benefit.
I have yet to develop my argument for being compassionate for the sake of the animals as ends-in-themselves beyond the fact that they demonstrably feel real pain and suffer. Subjectively, I do not care to bring unnecessary sufferring into existence. Reality is replete with unnecessary sufferring. Why would I want to increase sufferring for a few pleasant sensations on my tongue? We hardly notice flavor in the first place, so sleepy we are.
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| The so-called "crisis" you mention is really due to a matter of choices being available, and the solution is better choices, through education - as you have said - but the choices do not necessarily entail eliminating meat from the diet ... that is what vegetarianism mean, I'm pretty sure. Among the possible choices are a) no meat,as a personal choice for whatever reasons 2) less meat 3) careful attention to the nutritional value of particular meat sources 4) some combination of the above. |
Yes, you have caught my argument well. At no point have I demanded that all people become vegetarian. The title of this thread is "Understanding Vegetarians." I am only trying to provide a forum in which people may consider--perhaps for the first time--the consequence of their dietary choices. Any reflective man or woman who has gone about developing a philosophy of life, and hence of choice, must take diet into primary consideration. For, few of us here, no matter how important we fancy ourselves to be--we poets, teachers and profits--, will have a greater impact on the world than by our food choices. Yet, could we master but this one primary category of choice, our self-mastery could potentially cultivate that character which is of consequence.
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| Only an evolutionary model can create the necessary understanding by which ethical and rational choice can be made. This is just one, among many reasons, why the mono-theistic world views of the Abrahamic religions are not only indefensible, but, given our present understanding of the global crisis, they morally banckrupt. They cause harm. |
Whoa. Dude is asserting that every single religious system ever practiced is morally bankrupt ... and this, after having implied from the get-go he's a vegetarian when he clearly is not. |
This is equivocating my position. I didn't assert that I am a vegetarian. Yet, this forum would have attracted far less attention and raised less awareness had I posted "Understanding Pescatarians." Yet, the move to eliminate several major categories of food is not a small choice; nor does it make my hypocritical. Still, I know you are playing with me here. So, have fun!
Further, I didn't say "every" religion. Just the really fucked-up ones: The Children of Abraham.
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| By the way, I think you might finally have this quote function licked. High five, bro'. |
Nearly got it. next I have to figure out how to quote from multiple posters. |
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