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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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 Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| It's like going to KFC and telling someone else "KFC is bad for your health" while eating a chicken leg. |
Actually, I eat KFC sometimes, and I'd have no problem telling you it's bad for your health.
I also smoke.
But it's far from hipocrisy, because we are all living and working here. There's a difference. There's also nothing wrong with being a little dissatisfied with a situation in which one has a vested interest, and wanting to see a change.
Your logic is screwed.
Sparkles*_* |
Do you even understand the term logic? We have our jobs because we have white faces. Now if you feel that this is wrong, you should not be working here. Obviously you and Mr Kiwiboy feel badly about this...but just as obviously not badly enough to quit your jobs. Once again, if you choose to live and work in a racist enviroment, that excludes you from critizing it. It's easy to be PC when your job isn't on the line. One wonders what you and Kiwi would think if you were replaced by someone who was willing to work for 1M. |
I try. I try to stop the flames, but they just keep coming from the rabble.
First, I AM NOT A F-ING ENGLISH TEACHER!!! Do your damned research.
So there ya go.
Second, I do not feel badly about working in Korea. Using your screwed logic, I shouldn't feel sorry for the starving children around the globe because I myself had a hearty dinner. Sorry; I do. I have what is called compassion, robot.
It is conceivable to partake in an act and find flaws in the structure of said act, Potsie.
Shoosh!
Sparkles*_* |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
[It is conceivable to partake in an act and find flaws in the structure of said act, Potsie.
Shoosh!
Sparkles*_* |
It most surely is. It's called hypocrisy. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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So if I'm a teacher, and I have problems with the way the faculty is run, government cuts, etc., and I continue to work as a teacher, that would make me a hypocrite?
Use your mind man!
Sparkles*_* |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
So if I'm a teacher, and I have problems with the way the faculty is run, government cuts, etc., and I continue to work as a teacher, that would make me a hypocrite?
Use your mind man!
Sparkles*_* |
I might say the same to you. We are not talking about government cuts. We are talking about working under a policy that advantages us because of our skin color. Racism is a lot different. If you find that morally repugnant, then yes it makes you a hypocrite to continue to work. Government cuts and problems with the way the faculty is run, are not problems of morality. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Try again. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| At any rate you are not a teacher and the topic of the thread was "racism in the advertising of ESL positions. So why does this concern you? I could understand if the topic was say "rascism in the advertising of positions" but this is dealing with teaching and teachers. Generally speaking people do not get very emotionally involved in something that does not touch on their life. Yet you are here making post after post. I am a teacher which is why I am here in this thread. I am condemning the hypocrisy that people show in slamming Mr. Sperling and Korea for posting rascist ads, yet continue to work under a racist policy. If you honestly do not see a double standard at work here, then I will bow out of this argument as there is no point in continuing it. If that is the case we will never convince each other of our standpoint. Let's agree to disagree and let this endless thread die a peaceful death. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| At any rate you are not a teacher and the topic of the thread was "racism in the advertising of ESL positions. So why does this concern you? I could understand if the topic was say "rascism in the advertising of positions" but this is dealing with teaching and teachers. Generally speaking people do not get very emotionally involved in something that does not touch on their life. Yet you are here making post after post. |
I used to teach here (two years), but have since started doing other things. Regardless, I am still keen on the ESL scene in Korea. There's also nothing wrong with advocacy, is there?
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| I am a teacher which is why I am here in this thread. I am condemning the hypocrisy that people show in slamming Mr. Sperling and Korea for posting rascist ads, yet continue to work under a racist policy. |
Similarily, using your logic, since the ads on his website are obviously racist and he continues posting them, Mr. Sperling is in fact a racist. If he wasn't, he'd get rid of the racist ads.
Interesting. Not true perhaps, but interesting nevertheless.
| Quote: |
| If you honestly do not see a double standard at work here, then I will bow out of this argument as there is no point in continuing it. If that is the case we will never convince each other of our standpoint. Let's agree to disagree and let this endless thread die a peaceful death. |
OK, I'll meet you halfway. If I was working at a school that I knew placed racist ads, then yes, I would quit. However, as I mentioned before, there's nothing hypocritical about working at a job (which might be a great place to work and even hire minorities) and criticizing the industry as a whole.
Similarly, If black civil rights activists did nothing but "go back to Africa" -- as many racists likely suggested, heck, likely still do -- then the situation in the US wouldn't be at the point it is today, and Jim Crow laws would probably still be in effect.
Changing something inherently wrong begins with activism, not accusations of hypocrisy, finger pointing and apathy. That's where our ideoligies differ, I think.
Sparkles*_* |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| My fellow "whities" should keep this in mind next time they start to complain about not getting a taxi. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| The Urban Myth wrote: |
We have our jobs because we have white faces.
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I missed this one from earlier Urban. Do you really hold by this statement? I ask because you ripped into me a while ago for criticizing the industry at large, but here you have completely denounced this industry as intrinsicly racist, which is a much deeper criticism than I ever made. You're saying that we only have these jobs because we have white faces.
I cant believe you really think this? I'm sure you don't believe this and wrote it in the heat of an argument with Tiberious.
Last edited by Butterfly on Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
We have our jobs because we have white faces.
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I missed this one from earlier Urban. Do you really hold by this statement? I ask because you ripped into me a while ago for criticizing the industry at large, but here you have completely denounced this industry as intrinsicly racist, which is a much deeper criticism than I ever made. You're saying that we only have these jobs because we have white faces.
I cant believe you really think this? I'm sure you don't believe this and wrote it in the heat of an argument with Tiberious. |
It is possible to hold one opinion, yet defend another opposing one. It is called playing devil's advocate. Now as to the statement I made. "We have our jobs because of our white faces." We have all heard the stories of directors leaving people stranded at the airport because of the wrong skin color. We have heard the stories of minorities finding it MUCH harder than ourselves to find jobs in Korea, even though there are plenty of jobs. Yes the industry wants white faces. Is that racist? Back home they are looking for certain things as well, such as youth, and good looks as well as qualifications. But they can't say so, because of laws. So they make another excuse. I would rather face and deal with racism in a blatent form, than in a hidden one. At least I know my "enemy" as so to speak.
In this way, Korea is better than back home. I am not exactly defending the industry, but pointing out the double standard on this board. People are critizing the racist ads, but own their employed status to this very policy. However not all hakwons have this unenlighted viewpoint, and that should also be kept in mind.
"I ripped into you a while ago?" Do you mean in this thread or in another one? Please clarify so that I can do likewise. Thanks. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Well it was a long time ago mate, and having reviewed it I see it doesn't really fit my point that I thought you had a bit more faith in ESL than to express such a cynical opinion as to say we are hired simply because we have white faces.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=10051&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
And I thought you did have more faith than that, but I don't want to drag up this tired argument with you if you don't want to go because I'm only going to raise points already made.
You wrote in the above thread that life back in your native Canada is not easy economically, and you enjoy a better standard of living here. Good. But working in a 'racist' industry (which I still contest) in Korea for a better standard of life, is one thing, but working in it and endorsing advertising measures taken by some employers to keep it so, is quite simply beneath you Urban. I don't believe you really follow this line of reasoning. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| You wrote in the above thread that life back in your native Canada is not easy economically, and you enjoy a better standard of living here. Good. But working in a 'racist' industry (which I still contest) in Korea for a better standard of life, is one thing, but working in it and endorsing advertising measures taken by some employers to keep it so, is quite simply beneath you Urban. I don't believe you really follow this line of reasoning. |
Woa there! Back up the train a little! I am NOT endorsing it in any way, shape or form. I am merely pointing out the fact that you will have a much easier time being hired if you have a white face. Maybe you should talk to some minority teachers and read a number of the threads on the Job Information Journal. posted by the same. Or do a search on the boards. Now about the white faces. There are a awful number of so-called "teachers" here who should not be teaching. You can find tons of people moaning about how they don't want to be teaching English in ten years time or so. You can find many people with no or fake qualifications. You can also find many people working here for the simple reason that they can't get a job back home (at least not one that pays as much). How did they get hired? They had a white face.
Anyway that was a side tangent. What I initially came into this thread for was to say if people are so irate about Mr.Sperling posting so-called racist ads, why don't they take that line of reasoning a little further and quit? Yes this industry is racist. But writing messages on a message board or holding protests will not change it.
What will? We as teachers can work in our classrooms to foster change. We can expose our students as much as possible to diversity. Don't forget some of these children will be running Korea in 30 or so years time. Now is the time to attempt to expand their minds. But trying this with the present generation of people who currently run Korea, I am afraid is very much a lost cause. Working in the classroom from within, is a much better way, even though it will take some time. But isn't eliminating racism (even if just a little) worth the effort and time? |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
We have our jobs because we have white faces.
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I missed this one from earlier Urban. Do you really hold by this statement? I ask because you ripped into me a while ago for criticizing the industry at large, but here you have completely denounced this industry as intrinsicly racist, which is a much deeper criticism than I ever made. You're saying that we only have these jobs because we have white faces.
I cant believe you really think this? I'm sure you don't believe this and wrote it in the heat of an argument with Tiberious. |
Friendly fire.
I never wrote that, though I'm sure it was a simple mistake.
Sparkles*_* |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
Well it was a long time ago mate, and having reviewed it I see it doesn't really fit my point that I thought you had a bit more faith in ESL than to express such a cynical opinion as to say we are hired simply because we have white faces.
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Oh Mr. Butterfly. A few final questions, if you would be so good to answer them. Outside of Seoul, how many African-American teachers do you know? How many Kyopo teachers do you know? And how many white teachers do you know? I would be willing to bet the farm, that you know and see far more white teachers than AA teachers or Kyopo teachers. I have worked in Daejeon and Busan. I know one AA teacher and three Kyopos. I can't even began to tally the number of white teachers I have seen. (in the hundreds somewhere). |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Well, outside of Seoul, but inside Korea, I don't actually know anyone which would probably explain our different perspective on this. In addition I work with adults, where the prejudice isn't as prevalent.
But I would say of all the English teachers I know here, whites are the majority , closely followed by Korean-Americans (they have a niche in adult English education) and I do know three African American and two British Carribean teachers (in addition to Maoris, British and South African Indian and Pakistani, Chinese-Canadian), and they are all very good at what they do and despite this they had some difficulty securing work. But you said "We have our jobs because we have white faces" and I rather resented that because of the people I know and after being a EFL teacher in different countries for ten years. I think you should give yourself and many of us more credit than that. There are lots of professionals here too.
I agree with what you say about educating children with tolerance, not so easy with adults, though in truth I very seldom encounter racist remarks about any race other than the Japanese, and we all know about that one.
I would also say this is true globally in the industry too, I don't think that many non-white people even enter the industry (more sense than us?). For sure the proportions of white teachers are even greater in the UK (without the KA's). I don't know why. And dropping the request for 'whites only' in occasional advertising from Korean clients of Dave's may be a drop in the ocean, but its also a small step in the right direction.
Presumably there are laws against such advertising in Canada, and there are also racist employers in Canada. Surely you wouldn't advocate the flaunting of these laws in Canada even if it does mean that some people apply for positions in vain.
*Tiberious~ yes it was a simple mistake for which I apologize. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
But I would say of all the English teachers I know here, whites are the majority , closely followed by Korean-Americans (they have a niche in adult English education) and I do know three African American and two British Carribean teachers (in addition to Maoris, British and South African Indian and Pakistani, Chinese-Canadian), and they are all very good at what they do and despite this they had some difficulty securing work.
Presumably there are laws against such advertising in Canada, and there are also racist employers in Canada. Surely you wouldn't advocate the flaunting of these laws in Canada even if it does mean that some people apply for positions in vain.
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You know Maoris and Pakistani teachers working in Korea? That would be illegal methinks. I was talking about legal teachers with E-2 visas. I know there are a large number of illegal teachers from countries where English is not the first language.
I am not advocating the flaunting of any racist laws. I am saying it is hypocritical for people to critize Mr. Sperling (assuming he has actually even read these ads, much less knows about them) but work under a racist policy. I ask again, how many legal teachers do you know that work in Korea and are non-white? Now how many legal teachers do you know that work in Korea and are white? Compare the numbers. Something's got to be off there.
BTW you just made my point. You said yourself that these minority teachers are "all very good at what they do and despite this they had some difficulty securing work." Let's compare this to me. I had 14 job offers when I first came to Korea. Before I found a school this year I had 12. Don't you think that is a little odd, that someone who is white gets so many offers and talented teachers (your assesment) encounter difficulty? Remember the only real difference between us is skin color. If that doesn't prove Korea has a racist policy then what does?
All we can do is strive to educate our students, as best we can so that this unequal state of affairs will (hopefully) one day come to a end. |
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