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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Long timers that are illiterate |
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| myenglishisno wrote: |
Met a few teachers the other night who've been here for more than a few years. We got talking and got on the topic of Korean. All of them divulged that they couldn't read a word of 한글 nor were they great at speaking.
My Korean is far from perfect but I have been studying since I've been here. My spoken Korean should be much better but anything to do with written Korean and I'm doing pretty well. I keep a journal in Korean, talk to Korean friends online in Korean, as well as read the news and so on. I actually thought I was well behind the average for people that have been there as long as I.
Anyway, not counting the people who have been here for fewer than two years, I keep running into long-timers who can't read 한글. Either they can't read it or they can barely read it. Sometimes they're proud of it like it is some kind of accomplishment and other times they hide it for awhile and it takes awhile to piece it together.
Part of me would write a person off for this as in the same way, I'd write someone off for believing that pro-wrestling was real. Then again, some of them seem like perfectly intelligent, normal people. That and it seems like more than 60% (rough estimate) of the long timers (2+ years) I meet can't read.
Is there any excuse for this? Why can't you read (assuming you can't)? |
How much should we be able to read in your opinion? I've been here for 3 1/2 years all told. I probably can't read as much as you, though. I can read a menu in Korean. I can read sign names in Korean without a problem, and can read many common phrases. I can't read a book.
Some people either find Korean too frustrating to learn because they find either the sounds hard or the characters that often resemble each other to be confusing for them.
Also, some don't have a lot of interest in the culture and prefer to learn other languages. I make an effort to learn Korean. I am taking a Korean class. It's not easy to find Korean classes, by the way, and academies in Korea, in constrast to ones in China, don't encourage the acquisition of the native language. |
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goreality
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I think anyone who has lived here for more than a few months should try and learn Hangul. People should also make an effort to learn the language.
But.....Maybe they have learning disabilities? Insulting the uneducated and the illiterate is ignorant and arrogant at best and even worse for teachers to do it. |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Geumchon
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| goreality wrote: |
| But.....Maybe they have learning disabilities? Insulting the uneducated and the illiterate is ignorant and arrogant at best and even worse for teachers to do it. |
We're not talking about the general population, we're talking about a group of educated people with university degrees teaching abroad. I already mentioned dyslexia as a valid reason for not learning hangul and I doubt dyslexia is the reason people don't seem to learn it here. The reason is laziness. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Learning to read in any environment can of course be helpful.
Imagine the trouble being able to cipher 갈아타는 곳 could save you. 
Sorry OP I've resisted this long. I just couldn't hold it in any longer.
Seriously though to chalk it all up to laziness is, well lazy.
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Setaro
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of people seem confused about what the OP was saying.
There is a big difference between being able to recognise the meaning of korean letters (Hangeul) as regards the SOUNDS they represent, and being able to read Korean in regards to being able to understand the actual korean words.
Being able to read Korean to say, the level of reading a newspaper, takes many many months, probably years of dedicated study. Even if someone who has lived in Korea for many years, they may not have the time (or desire/need/whatever) to study Korean to that level. For them, I save my ire.
HOWEVER, learning to read Hangeul, that is to recognise what sounds they represent, and thus be able to read out an address, a name, a product, a menu etc, takes literally 2 hours.
If someone who has been here more than a week can't read Hangeul, then they are a cretin. If the reason is they can't be bothered, or the reason is they tried and gave up (on the world's simplest written script), then they are a cretin. No excuses. Shut up apologists. Those people are cretins. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
Learning to read in any environment can of course be helpful.
Imagine the trouble being able to cipher 갈아타는 곳 could save you.
Sorry OP I've resisted this long. I just couldn't hold it in any longer.
Seriously though to chalk it all up to laziness is, well lazy.
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HA!
Friend of mine had a friend who always called Suseo (수서) as 수시오. (If you cant read that, tough) Personally, I don't see how a person can live comfortably without knowing how to read Hangeul. Sure, pick up phrases and the such, but what do you do if you don't know how the Korean language romanization/pronunciation works? Plenty of words that are written one way in Romanization, but have a different pronunciation, and plenty of places have very similar pronunciation (삼성/삼송,신촌/신천) that I personally can't fathom not taking the time to pick up the basics.
Yes, I understand the dyslexia argument, and I get that languages are hard to learn. But as another pointed out, we're talking about college educated teachers - they aren't dyslexic, or they know how to handle it enough to graduate - seems like a red herring. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Setaro wrote: |
| Being able to read Korean to say, the level of reading a newspaper, takes many many months, probably years of dedicated study. |
http://www.koreaninkuwait.com/?p=2344
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| Foreigners who have emigrated to Korea and engaged the language in a serious fashion generally report that it takes something on the order of fifteen years in the country before they feel truly 100% at home in it. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Setaro wrote: |
A lot of people seem confused about what the OP was saying.
There is a big difference between being able to recognise the meaning of korean letters (Hangeul) as regards the SOUNDS they represent, and being able to read Korean in regards to being able to understand the actual korean words.
Being able to read Korean to say, the level of reading a newspaper, takes many many months, probably years of dedicated study. Even if someone who has lived in Korea for many years, they may not have the time (or desire/need/whatever) to study Korean to that level. For them, I save my ire.
HOWEVER, learning to read Hangeul, that is to recognise what sounds they represent, and thus be able to read out an address, a name, a product, a menu etc, takes literally 2 hours.
If someone who has been here more than a week can't read Hangeul, then they are a cretin. If the reason is they can't be bothered, or the reason is they tried and gave up (on the world's simplest written script), then they are a cretin. No excuses. Shut up apologists. Those people are cretins. |
I disagree with those people that say you can read 2 Hangeul in 2 hours.
That's for some people. It doesn't apply to all foreigners learning Korean. Some people might master Russian faster than they might master Korean. Reading a newspaper in a non-Indo-European language in just several months can be a tall order for some who don't have so much time.
To illustrate an example, one foreigner on a site who seems educated was frustrated that things weren't sticking with him when it came to Korean. I told him to not give up. Some of you folks are judging everyone and using the same brush to characterize everyone who isn't as good at you at Hangeul.
I can read menus, signs, names, my students names, greetings, some dialogues. That's about the extent of it. Without being in a class, it's hard for people to learn.
Last edited by Adventurer on Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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freddy teacher
Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
I disagree with those people that say you can read 2 Hangeul in 2 hours.
That's for some people. I'm in a Korean class with 9 foreigners, and we've been studying for weeks. I am somewhat more advanced than the others since I've been here before. I just didn't want to jump to the next level. Several of them have definitely taken a lot more than 2 hours to read Hangeul because some the different vowels are like the flip side of others, and the combination of vowels can be tricky for some. Some people find it confusing. I have seen many foreigners say that. Some foreigners, however, quickly can read Hangeul. I find Russian or Greek letters easier for me. |
not for nothing, but most westerners that come here are pretty dumb, so im not surprised that it is taking them a while to learn the basic alphabet.
i am by no means a genius, and i learned everything in under 2 hours. sure, my pronunciation wasnt great until i started taking lessons and talking to native koreans, but 2 hours max, and you can read the alphabet.
it should be mandatory for all NETs to be able to at least be able to read the alphabet. a basic lesson in korean will help you understand why your students speak Englishee the way they do and it will make you a much better language teacher (especially for the younger kinder students).
just because you can speak english, doesnt mean you can teach it.
Last edited by freddy teacher on Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| freddy teacher wrote: |
| 2 hours max, and you can read the alphabet. /end |
I bet loads of people claiming to know how to read 한글 wouldn't be able to correctly pronounce 꽃입. In this case, ㅊ=ㄴ and ㅇ=ㄴ (soundwise).
Hanguel has some tricky exceptions (a lot) which make it difficult to read.
And the Korean language has an objectively large number of sounds, which makes it hard as heck for a 백인 like me to pronounce. T__T
Also, does knowing the phonetics of an alphabet (but not the meaning of the words read) make one litterate? Arabic and Russian have phonetic scripts, yet no one would argue these are easy languages to learn. (Like Korean, Arabic and Russian have very complex grammar and very difficult pronunciation.) |
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Setaro
Joined: 08 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Setaro wrote: |
A lot of people seem confused about what the OP was saying.
There is a big difference between being able to recognise the meaning of korean letters (Hangeul) as regards the SOUNDS they represent, and being able to read Korean in regards to being able to understand the actual korean words.
Being able to read Korean to say, the level of reading a newspaper, takes many many months, probably years of dedicated study. Even if someone who has lived in Korea for many years, they may not have the time (or desire/need/whatever) to study Korean to that level. For them, I save my ire.
HOWEVER, learning to read Hangeul, that is to recognise what sounds they represent, and thus be able to read out an address, a name, a product, a menu etc, takes literally 2 hours.
If someone who has been here more than a week can't read Hangeul, then they are a cretin. If the reason is they can't be bothered, or the reason is they tried and gave up (on the world's simplest written script), then they are a cretin. No excuses. Shut up apologists. Those people are cretins. |
I disagree with those people that say you can read 2 Hangeul in 2 hours.
That's for some people. It doesn't apply to all foreigners learning Korean. Some people might master Russian faster than they might master Korean. Reading a newspaper in a non-Indo-European language in just several months can be a tall order for some who don't have so much time.
To illustrate an example, one foreigner on a site who seems educated was frustrated that things weren't sticking with him when it came to Korean. I told him to not give up. Some of you folks are judging everyone and using the same brush to characterize everyone who isn't as good at you at Hangeul.
I can read menus, signs, names, my students names, greetings, some dialogues. That's about the extent of it. Without being in a class, it's hard for people to learn. |
Again you seem to not understand this debate. You can read Hangeul. That's all this thread is about. I can also read Hangeul. I can not, however, read Korean very well. I know only a small vocabulary. I struggle to understand books written for 5 year olds. I can read them out loud perfectly, because I can read Hangeul, though I do not know what the words mean. If you can read menus, signs, names etc. YOU CAN READ HANGEUL.
This thread is about people who have been in Korea for years, yet can't read Hangeul. Hangeul is letters, it's an alphabet, IT IS NOT A LANGUAGE. And it takes less than 2 hours to learn, with a good guide/textbook.
No one is arguing that KOREAN is an easy language to learn, it is not, it's in fact the most difficult language I've studied, barring Russian. However, Hangeul is an absolute piece of cake to learn (sure there are some things going on such as consonants effecting neighbouring consonants and changing the pronunciation, but still, learning Korean letters takes less than 1 afternoon).
And people who can't or won't learn are cretins. Especially if they've been here more than a few weeks, or, god forbid, YEARS. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Setaro wrote: |
| it's in fact the most difficult language I've studied, barring Russian. |
Really? Everyone I know who has studied both Korean and Russian has said Korean is more difficult.
| Setaro wrote: |
| No one is arguing that KOREAN is an easy language to learn |
Not true. Chet Wautlands and many others on this board claim Korean is an easy language to learn. @@ |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Setaro wrote: |
| it's in fact the most difficult language I've studied, barring Russian. |
Really? Everyone I know who has studied both Korean and Russian has said Korean is more difficult.
| Setaro wrote: |
| No one is arguing that KOREAN is an easy language to learn |
Not true. Chet Wautlands and many others on this board claim Korean is an easy language to learn. @@ |
It took me 30 minutes to figure out the Russian script, which is similar to the Greek script, but it did not take me 2 hours to read Hangeul. I kept on forgetting the characters. It depends on the person. I can read Arabic, as well, and some people can quickly pick up the Arabic script and some cannot. People react differently to languages. Again, I'm in a Korean class, and I would say it took the foreigners in the class more than 2 hours to read the script. I learned to sort of wrap my head around Hangeul by comparing it to Greek and Semitic scripts while using other tricks to remember. It uses a similar concept as Semitic scripts in a way. Saying that Korean is easier than Russian or Russian is easier is all relative to the learner. I've met people who thought Korean was easier for them than French when roughly 60% of English comes from French.
Road Map to Korean helps you understand those exceptions and so does Survival Korean, which is one of the more recent books. The Sogang books are essentially useless without a teacher. A lot of people can mispronounce many Korean words even if they know Hangeul. You have to know the exceptions like when a Ree-ul is sounded like a Nee-un when an mee-um follows it.
I agree with World Traveler that not everyone looks at a language the same way, and not everyone will master Han Geul in the same way or at the same rate, and people can confuse the characters. In English, our letters don't look even slightly similar to each other. That's one thing to consider. And many of the books in Korea, are not clear when it comes to learning Han Geul. The materials have improved in the last few years.
My problem is with those folks who have been here for many years, are even married to Koreans in many cases, and don't bother making a real effort to learn the language. I also have friends who could care less about learning Korean. I don't want to judge them. It's their life. They can do what they want. I am not superior because I can speak some Korean and can read Korean to some extent. It's my personal choice.
C'est tout mes amis... |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| A lot of the posts on here remind me of the last time this topic came up when I likened the pro-learning Hangul/Korean mob to the healthy kids in the gym surrounding the fat kid who can't climb the rope, thinking they can bully him into doing it. The the fat kid kind of knows the reason why he can't do it is because he's fat and lazy and doesn't really see the relevance of climbing a rope and his interests lie in other areas, but the other kids keep on at him saying it's easy and anyone can do it and calling him pathetic and a cretin and an idiot and all sorts. And the more they say this, the more reluctant he is to do it because in the end his instinct is to react against people who behave in this way. And in a sense he's cutting off his nose to spite his face because getting a bit fitter will improve his life a bit, but at the same time you can understand his behaviour. |
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Daelim
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:33 am Post subject: |
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I've been her for two years, soon to be three and can't read a lick of Hangeul. My spoken Korean has come along quite well and I have a good range of vocabulary and common expressions under my sleeve too.
I speak German (almost fluently), basic French and basic Arabic. I studied German in school and University, French in school and picked up Arabic from growing up in Saudi Arabia.
I don't want to learn how to read Korean for the time being. I'm quite happy to be completely ignorant to the written language for three reasons;
1. I don't want to learn it.
2. I don't need to learn it.
3. I like the feeling of not knowing what anything around me says!
Until numbers 1 and 2 change I can't see myself learning how to read Hangeul. It's not worth my time as in the two years I've been here I've never had to read it and my personal feelings are that I don't want to learn it.
I'm apparantly illiterate because of this depsite being able to speak another language fluently and a couple more casually? That's fine by me! |
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