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S. Korea's ruling party pulls off upset victory
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermentation wrote:


In other news, none of this answered my question on why I should vote for one of these assholes.


Ok, I'll (somewhat) chime in on that. Basically, for me, a lot of the reason I vote"right" is because I don't like the "left's" policies on North Korea.

Honestly, their welfare approaches are soooo similar now, it's sometimes hard to tell them apart.

As per specific elections, for example, I voted against Kwak because I was against his specific pledge of free lunches for all students.

So, would I actually push you to vote for Saenuri? Nope. But if there's a candidate in your area who's policies or style you like, then that choice is yours.



NohopeSeriously wrote:
It doesn't really matter anymore. There has been a small but growing leadership crisis in the Saenuri Party. A conservative political party that focuses too much on PR wouldn't be successful.


Talk, talk, talk. You've been saying that for a long time now. Yet their 'leadership crisis' helped them pull off a win.

How's the leadership doing on the other side? Any BIG changes?? lol

Oh, wait... does that not fit into your story telling?
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:

Ok, I'll (somewhat) chime in on that. Basically, for me, a lot of the reason I vote"right" is because I don't like the "left's" policies on North Korea.

Honestly, their welfare approaches are soooo similar now, it's sometimes hard to tell them apart.


That's pretty much what I got. My family who push saenuri on me say the same thing. If I ask them, "So other than the NK issue, where do they differ?" They can't answer.

I'm not sure if the NK issue is that big of a deal for me to vote for either way.
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falco



Joined: 26 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion thus far. I'm usually a fairly left leaning kindof person myself but I cant quite get my head around any foreigner actually living here actively supporting the left in this country. I've lived here too long and heard too much racist drivel coming out of the mouths of the 'liberals' of this country to ever give much creedence to what they say.

Nonetheless one or two points did come in the preceeding posts that are worth commenting on. For example I wasnt aware the Park Geun Hye was the benefactor of her late father�s forced confiscation of the Scholarship Foundation started by Kim Ji Tae. That kindof makes me look at Park Guen Hye in a new light (if in fact it is true). That other point that Dave Chance made about the Bodo League massacre made me think as well. I seriously doubt the 100,000 figure (those kindof numbers would put it into the holocaust category ie. Nanking massacre etc....very very difficult to cover everything up when those kindof numbers are involved), but nevertheless he does make a valid point about the roots of the current conservative movement.

However the rest of the stuff posted by the K-left leaning posters here miss the point entirely. Every political discussion about the ROK has to be put into the context of the current and past situation involving North Korea. The North Korean �govt� was and still is the most radically extreme communist personality cult in history with not even the most basic human rights extended to its citizens. Just think about that fact for a moment. Any political dialogue that fails to take this into consideration is essentially pointless. That�s why comments like� �
Quote:
Even today, the left has an impression of a pro-North Korean attitude and people say that it's a bad thing. Any corruption from the left is forgivable. It's justifiable. Get over it.

Quote:
North Korean government = good guys
North Korean military = South Korean conservatives = bad guys�

and�
Quote:
�Both NK military and SK conservatives work for the same side. They work for the same cause.

Quote:
The anti-NK South Korean conservatists are the real Communists.�


...are just plain silly. Both these comments are in denial of the fact that the North has been been prepared to go to any lengths to take over the South right from the beginning of its existence. I would suggest to any foreigners supporting the left in this country to actually go out and try to become members of the said parties. I guarantee you a frosty reception.
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Park Geun-hye's illusion"

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2012/04/202_109225.html

Most noticeable is her reluctance to clean up the mess Lee has made, which should be her most urgent job whether she likes it or not. A case in point is the handling of the government�s illegal surveillance of private citizens. Park pledges to enact a law to prevent unlawful spying on citizens. That may be necessary, but a more pressing task is its thorough investigation and due punishment of the apparent lawbreakers, according to the existing law. Does Korea need a new law to prevent theft to punish thieves?

Park�s hesitancy to expel two successful but shameful candidates ― a sexual harasser and academic plagiarizer ― also casts doubt on what she has long stressed is the ``politics of principle.� If Park�s words and acts change between friends and foes, and before and after the elections, she could succeed as a campaign cheerleader but not as a national leader, even if she becomes one. Also regrettable is her disinterest in key social issues, such as the prolonged strike of broadcast journalists. Voters may think Park sympathizes with Lee�s attempts for media control.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quoting the next paragraph of that opinion piece??

Quote:
We don�t think Park should be excluded from the presidency because of the negative aspects of her father�s legacy. Children cannot _ and should not _be held accountable for what their parents did. Yet she must realize people think, and know ― genes can hardly change. One can seldom alter his or her DNA, biological or political, hereditary or acquired.


So... The author tries to dance around it, but basically holds her accountable to her genes.

Nice.
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
Not quoting the next paragraph of that opinion piece??

Quote:
We don�t think Park should be excluded from the presidency because of the negative aspects of her father�s legacy. Children cannot _ and should not _be held accountable for what their parents did. Yet she must realize people think, and know ― genes can hardly change. One can seldom alter his or her DNA, biological or political, hereditary or acquired.


So... The author tries to dance around it, but basically holds her accountable to her genes.

Nice.


Well if you want to play that game, why not post the 2 paragraphs after yours (which conclude the article) as well-


Park must not reaffirm such conviction with her lack of proper views on history, rule of law and democratic values. Such a popular belief or bias also deepens when she only emphasizes national interests apparently at the expense of people, especially weak and powerless ones.

Breaking away from the past should be different from burying it in the ground. Until and unless she realizes this, she will remain an unfortunate politician. If she becomes the President despite that, it will be unfortunate for the whole nation.


Takes on a different meaning, don't it?

Her father-

Major-General Park Chung-hee capitalized on the social and economic unrest brought about by Syngman Rhee's regime. In 1961, he led a small group of military officers and seized power, establishing the Second Republic. Park immediately dissolved the National Assembly, declared martial law, and suspended all political parties. [2] His military junta created the Korean Central Intelligence Agency (KCIA), which was patterned after and received support from the US Central Intelligence Agency. During this time thousands of Koreans were placed under surveillance and house arrest, arrested and falsely accused of crimes without a trial, and imprisoned for attempting to form new political parties and economic movements.

President Park granted himself a third term in 1969 by illegally amending the constitution. The new amendment gave him absolute power over the legislative and judiciary branches and even dissolved the National Assembly, which he had once instituted. After declaring himself president-for-life in 1975, Park declared Emergency Measure No 9, which made it a crime to criticize the new constitution. Thousands of South Koreans resisted this new law and were kidnapped, jailed or murdered. [3] Opposition to Park's life-long presidency and illicit laws culminated in 1979, when an economic crisis sparked another massive anti-government protest.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IF14Dg01.html

I'd say concerns about lineage do come into play here. Either you aren't very aware of what he got up to, or you don't really mind such behavior.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And again, you seem to love to focus on the past and dead people. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Park Chung Hee dead? Is he running in this Year's election?

No?

Oh, you mean that you agree with that editorial/op piece that because of genetics, his daughter holds some responsibility. You certainly do love to bring up past instances, but as soon as they are shown to not be as relevant as you'd like, you decide to shift gears into some other dirt digging.


I'm still laughing at you holding a 9 year old girl responsible for this sort of stuff. lol
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
And again, you seem to love to focus on the past and dead people. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Park Chung Hee dead? Is he running in this Year's election?

No?

Oh, you mean that you agree with that editorial/op piece that because of genetics, his daughter holds some responsibility. You certainly do love to bring up past instances, but as soon as they are shown to not be as relevant as you'd like, you decide to shift gears into some other dirt digging.


I'm still laughing at you holding a 9 year old girl responsible for this sort of stuff. lol


Here at my school in Boston we have a ton of young (adult) Korean students in the mix. The few times I have brought up Park Chung Hee (in regards to measures taken during his tenure) they have to a person spoken positively of his administration/rule/what-have-you.

Just throwing that out there as an anecdote that admittedly proves nothing besides where the PR apparently lies.
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
And again, you seem to love to focus on the past and dead people. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Park Chung Hee dead? Is he running in this Year's election?

No?

Oh, you mean that you agree with that editorial/op piece that because of genetics, his daughter holds some responsibility. You certainly do love to bring up past instances, but as soon as they are shown to not be as relevant as you'd like, you decide to shift gears into some other dirt digging.


I'm still laughing at you holding a 9 year old girl responsible for this sort of stuff. lol


Alright so you don't mind that type of behavior and are ignorant of how she is aligned with his supporters.

I don't so much laugh at you as I pity you. And so I am done with you on this issue.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

falco wrote:

Nonetheless one or two points did come in the preceeding posts that are worth commenting on. For example I wasnt aware the Park Geun Hye was the benefactor of her late father�s forced confiscation of the Scholarship Foundation started by Kim Ji Tae. That kindof makes me look at Park Guen Hye in a new light (if in fact it is true). That other point that Dave Chance made about the Bodo League massacre made me think as well. I seriously doubt the 100,000 figure (those kindof numbers would put it into the holocaust category ie. Nanking massacre etc....very very difficult to cover everything up when those kindof numbers are involved), but nevertheless he does make a valid point about the roots of the current conservative movement.


The fact that the best candidate of the right is the daughter of a totalitarian dictator speaks a lot about the politics in this country. I know that may not have a lot of bearing on her current philosophy but it's something I can't easily get over. Then again, I don't like the idea of my tax money going to the enemy either. I might retract the idea of voting altogether.

Party roots are not as relevant in my opinion. If they were relevant, the conservatives in the US would vote Democrat. As far as I can tell, both sides (in both counties) are indistinguishable. Neither side can convince me of why I should vote for them but only give reasons why I shouldn't vote for the other side.

As for the massacres, I agree that 100,000 seems like too high of a number that can be conveniently covered up like Dave Chance likes to claim. The massacres themselves aren't really nothing new either. I knew about it since it was a kid, and my ultra-conservative, pro-military, Park Junghee loving family didn't keep it a secret from me. I just don't know where Chance got several hundred thousand from an estimate of 100,000.

What is his agenda any way? I get the vibe that he's trying to spread pro-North Korean/leftist sentiment, but he doesn't really do a good job of convincing people. He just tries to fill the board with random posts about how bad the right is and uses personal insults to attack anybody who doesn't agree with him. All I did was ask for more sources. He also avoided my questions altogether and completely changed the subject to Park Jung Hee and Guen Hae.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people read a few Left leaning history books and feel that they've discovered Atlantis. Every few years you'll get a new poster running around the boards saying "Did you know they killed people?!!?! OMG!?!!"

Where as in most people, and event "right leaning" Koreans, already know the gist of it all. It's not a massive revelation, and exaggerating the numbers and calling people names, doesn't help spread the message.


As Ive said all along in this thread - as soon as you start digging, you're going to find _______ on both sides of the fence. If there are a few crucial issues that stick out in party platforms (taxes, development, welfare), then vote they way you feel best protects your interests.
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falco



Joined: 26 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re:Chance.....I may be wrong but I get the feeling he hasnt actually lived in Korea very long actually. No foreigner (at least no-one I've ever met in my considerable time in Korea), who's lived here for any length of time, supports the racist nitwits that pose as the left in this country. Period. Maybe someone else has met one, but I personally never have.

Quite a few newbees when they first arrive here, wax on enthusiastically to everyone they meet about the food, music etc, in an effort to prove how much they've assimilated the culture. His postings give me the impression hes trying to do the same but using politics as his platform....lol.
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re Falco

He comes off as someone similar to Captain and Fermentation, who lack basic skills of reasoning and analysis, and mistake banding together as hooligans do for courage and manliness.

Don't stray too far from your peer group, you might learrn something.
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/04/117_109388.html

Kookmin University announced Friday that the ruling Saenuri Party lawmaker-elect and International Olympic Committee (IOC) member Moon Dae-sung had committed plagiarism in his doctoral thesis submitted to the university in 2007, following a preliminary investigation.

�The theme and purpose of Moon�s study was the same as that of a thesis by a Myongji College student,� professor Lee Chae-sung of the university�s ethics committee said in a news conference on its Seoul campus. �The similarity was far beyond the scope which academics ordinarily accept. We concluded it was plagiarism,� he said.

The taekwondo gold medalist in the 2004 Athens Olympics quit the party, which had scheduled a disciplinary meeting. He issued a statement of apology but didn�t mention whether he will give up his seat.

With the departure of Moon, elected to represent a district in Busan in the April 11 parliamentary elections, the ruling party is one seat shy of a clear majority in the 300-member unicameral National Assembly. A blame game is expected to follow over the process in which Moon was selected as the party�s candidate.
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

falco wrote:
Both these comments are in denial of the fact that the North has been been prepared to go to any lengths to take over the South right from the beginning of its existence. I would suggest to any foreigners supporting the left in this country to actually go out and try to become members of the said parties. I guarantee you a frosty reception.


You don't need to support a Communist Party. The conservatives are there.

Here's a very interesting post on the internet by an American expat in Korea.

Quote:
The story comes from an acquaintance who I have worked with for awhile. This guy has many relatives in high positions in Korean government and society, including parliament and even high in the judicial branch. Often one of his relatives would appear on TV. His father was high up in (the assassinated) President Park's staff.

The story he tells goes like this: one day, when he was a young boy, his father was visited by some very high (most likely military, like his father) officials. I guess they didn't mind the presence of a child in the room, so he was able to remember what they said.

Basically, what was being discussed was a secret agreement between President Park and Kim Il Sung (Jong Il's father, the "Great Leader" of North Korea). Apparently, Park and Kim had a closer relationship than most people think. The agreement was that Park and Kim feign animosity towards each other, and act like enemies, but in reality, they would be cooperating with each other to the point of time when the South and the North will finally be reunified.

Part of this agreement was that South Korea would seek to have a strong economy, while the North would have a strong military. After a period of time (about 50 years from the date of the agreement, I don't know what year this meeting took place) they would finally declare unification.


http://www.henrymakow.com/the_illuminist_hand_in_south_k.html

Kim Il Sung was a Marxist. Park Chung Hee was a pro-American pro-Japanese conservative. They both work for the same cause.

I'm not the only one in the world who thinks like this. There are thousands of people like me.

This all makes sense when Kim Jong Il (the son) once praised Park Guen Hye (the daughter) back in 2002 in Pyongyang.

Contemporary (Neo) conservatism is Marxism.

FYI I'm a Christian Socialist, not a secular Marxist. And of course. K-left is our only hope for world peace. I'm absolutely sick of the conservatives' saber-rattling.
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