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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
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| It's this belief that we must walk on eggshells all the time and censor what we think and say and triple check before issuing a statement that is as bland as possible in order not to offend any group that is sucking the life out of society. |
Yet most apologists on this board can't wait to yell 'racist' at any post they perceive as a slight on Korea. You can't have your cake and eat it TUM. |
Much like the catcall of "apologist," then? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Except you ARE an apologist, transmorgifier (even though you pretend not to be). |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Except you ARE an apologist, transmorgifier (even though you pretend not to be). |
WT, our thread got deleted! Sad days.....
EDIT: I wonder....if I'm just pretending not to be an apologist, it must mean that I have made some non-apologist-like posts, but for some reason you do not believe their truthfulness. Therefore, exactly what opinion(s) do I have to express in order for you to believe that I am genuine in my non-apologism? Is there a set list of beliefs I must hold to be able to shake this "apologist" label? To answer this, you will need to provide your standard operating definition of "apologist," which interests me as well. |
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backtotheROK
Joined: 13 Jul 2013
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
| backtotheROK wrote: |
Korea is the hermit kingdom. So anything outside or from outside Korea is viewed from many different angles. curiousity, fear, jealousy, or just gawping at plain weird.
curious-there are not many foreigners walking around. Some can have the appearance of a park bench tramp, which can add to the curiosity.
fear-fear of things koreans are not good at...English, beer, stubbles, integrity, raw self-sacrifice, music, and TV.
jealousy-Western Men are far far more attractive than Korean Men, Western Men are more blessed with manly physiques whilst Korean men can often look like a small-shouldered, pigeon muscled flop. Korean girls are generally jealous of western girls (unless its one of the atilla the hun types floating around).
plain weird-sorry but 50% of ESL teachers in Korea look awful. sometimes disgracefully obese, sometimes with zero or minus fashion sense, and often as ugly as a swimming rat.
With this in mind, and the fact that most koreans have zero respect for a hagwon monkey, in the same way Western Europeans have zero respect for an Eastern european facory worker with no skills, things and bahaviours occur for many different reasons. It could be one or all of these.
Happy ipayincash?
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Since you're Korean, just out of curiosity why are you posting here? And why do you keep sending threatening messages about murdering me into my inbox (and others who don't drool over Korea)? Do you not have anything better to do than obsess over foreigners? |
Is that how you win arguements? accuse people of being korean. you racist is scum! |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| I think PC-ism (left wing by another name) has gone too far and is basically trying to control thought. |
That's a pretty narrow view of the left wing and of political thought in general. First, one could ask who's trying to control whose thoughts? The wing that says you should be nice to other people, or the wing that has a virtual monopoly over the U.S. radio waves? Second, even if we weren't "PC", your language always affects others' thoughts. Like my earlier example of the guy who was mad that "you can't call a fag a fag" anymore, using that language is still controlling because it says "you should feel inferior to me because of the way you are." Third, there are loads of churchy right wingers who love to silence, censor, and otherwise demean people for using certain language. PC-ism is by no means limited to the left. And finally, if you adhere to the right-wing because the left-wing is too PC, you're willfully ignoring a massive part of the political debate by being a single-issue thinker. There are much bigger issues to talk about than political correctness, such as environmental degradation, poverty, international diplomacy with oppressive regimes, the military, the prison system, the food system, finite resources, the surveillance state, consolidation of power in private hands, and so on. Simply tossing out a phrase saying the left is out to control our thoughts means you're adhering to a much larger set of issues that you probably aren't thinking about. |
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backtotheROK
Joined: 13 Jul 2013
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| I think PC-ism (left wing by another name) has gone too far and is basically trying to control thought. |
That's a pretty narrow view of the left wing and of political thought in general. First, one could ask who's trying to control whose thoughts? The wing that says you should be nice to other people, or the wing that has a virtual monopoly over the U.S. radio waves? Second, even if we weren't "PC", your language always affects others' thoughts. Like my earlier example of the guy who was mad that "you can't call a fag a fag" anymore, using that language is still controlling because it says "you should feel inferior to me because of the way you are." Third, there are loads of churchy right wingers who love to silence, censor, and otherwise demean people for using certain language. PC-ism is by no means limited to the left. And finally, if you adhere to the right-wing because the left-wing is too PC, you're willfully ignoring a massive part of the political debate by being a single-issue thinker. There are much bigger issues to talk about than political correctness, such as environmental degradation, poverty, international diplomacy with oppressive regimes, the military, the prison system, the food system, finite resources, the surveillance state, consolidation of power in private hands, and so on. Simply tossing out a phrase saying the left is out to control our thoughts means you're adhering to a much larger set of issues that you probably aren't thinking about. |
treehugger
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Getting laughed at by Koreans? |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Threequalseven wrote: |
Does this happen to people? I was walking home today with my girlfriend (also foreign) and a guy maybe mid 20's to early 30's looks at me then smiles and laughs to his friend, clearly at my expense. I live in a small city of about 250,000 people, so foreigners aren't nearly as common here as in Seoul or Busan. But it's still irritating, and this certainly isn't the first time. I'm not even bothered if he thinks I look funny or something and laughs to his friend afterward. It's the fact that he feels no shame for laughing at me right in front of my face. And for what anyway? What could possibly be so damn funny? I'm a pretty normal looking guy. Is it because I can grow facial hair?
Anyway, there's this type of guy and then guy pushing 50. Walk into a store, ask for something in Korean, maybe mispronounce one vowel, then hear ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ in the background. But I'm not bothered by this guy because he's obviously just being a jerk. It's the brash zero-boundaries attitude that really stains my opinion of this place. |
Its insecure ajosshi behavior.
You'll find it everywhere among Korean men. Basically they feel threatened by foreign guys so they react in numerous different ways to make themselves feel in control of what they regard as their turf.
Usually it manifests as belligerent indifference but it can also be barely-perceptible put-downs or condescension.
The average Korean guy has a PhD in coc*blocking. With majors in one-upmanship and passive aggression. They lie awake at night dreaming up ways to make foreigners look silly.
Its a game they play. If you let them get to you then you'll walk around in a permanent rage. Instead, subtly return the favor. My favorite is to talk banmal to them. Greet them with "anyong" the same way you'd talk to a 6 yr old. |
And you say they've got issues. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Except you ARE an apologist, transmorgifier (even though you pretend not to be). |
WT, our thread got deleted! Sad days.....
EDIT: I wonder....if I'm just pretending not to be an apologist, it must mean that I have made some non-apologist-like posts, but for some reason you do not believe their truthfulness. Therefore, exactly what opinion(s) do I have to express in order for you to believe that I am genuine in my non-apologism? Is there a set list of beliefs I must hold to be able to shake this "apologist" label? To answer this, you will need to provide your standard operating definition of "apologist," which interests me as well. |
+1 on the bolded part. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| It's like racism. Would you rather deal with a person who was up front about being racist or would you rather deal with someone who smiled to your face and spewed vile garbage behind your back? |
Why would I want people who I don't know and who I will never see again to be 'upfront about being racist.' I don't care what they may think about foreigners, and if they do indeed dislike them, then yes, I would rather that they smiled to my face. Who would actually want to face such hostility from strangers on a daily basis? When it comes to dealing with strangers, we should generally keep any opinions that might be offensive to ourselves. That's called being 'civil,' a simple concept you seem to have trouble understanding.
For the record, I think a lot of overweight people lack self-control and should probably spend more time in the gym than at McDonald's. I see no reason, however, to say this to any of the chubby strangers I see walking around, because I understand that this might make them angry, offended, or upset. |
I'd rather deal with someone upfront than be backstabbed. Besides we're all men here. Once we reach the point where we can comfortably insult each other, we're good buddies.
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| Remind me why one is better than the other? - Especially if you are working in the service industry dealing with customers. |
That's a fair point. In that case you do represent a corporation and thus are bound by codes of conduct.
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One of the few things that keep me up at night was this Malaysian Chinese kid who was in my section when I was in the army, in those days, the British army was more 'white' than it is today and this kid got bullied massively - by people who were 'being honest and upfront' my great crime in all this was I didn't say nothing like a coward. I bet the gentleman in question really appreciated the honesty of his tormentors.
The problem with this kind of 'honesty' is it doesn't stop at the once, it carries on and one until someone stops them or shuts them up. |
Well maybe if you had been upfront and honest and said what you truly felt, people might have backed down and other people who supported you wouldn't have stayed silent like you did.
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| If you have a worldview that is based on nationalism, racial purity and the danger of mixed race relationships, keep them to yourself thanks |
Woah now, remember its just some dude at the register giggling for whatever reason. Let's not project too much what motives and worldview he might have.
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| There is no excuse for this social tourettes than exists in Korea and China |
I'm sorry that you can't handle honest negativity.
There's no excuse for the fact that some people treat black folks and Asians differently, largely based on aggression and physical size. This silliness in NET countries is primitive and racist as well, but is rarely spoken of or condemned. Indeed, the victims are blamed. "Asians just need to stand up for themselves and fight back".
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| For the record, I think a lot of overweight people lack self-control and should probably spend more time in the gym than at McDonald's. I see no reason, however, to say this to any of the chubby strangers I see walking around, because I understand that this might make them angry, offended, or upset. |
Well, the people here have concluded at least in the case of overweight people, that it is better for people to be honest than to ignore the problem.
As for that and foreigners and awkwardness. Who knows? Maybe some past experience has enlightened them there. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I'd rather deal with someone upfront than be backstabbed. Besides we're all men here. Once we reach the point where we can comfortably insult each other, we're good buddies.
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1. We aren't all men here.
2. I don't care what someone thinks of me, as long as I'm treated well and fairly. If someone wants to be full of hate, that's on them. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well maybe if you had been upfront and honest and said what you truly felt, people might have backed down and other people who supported you wouldn't have stayed silent like you did. |
 @ steelrails who seems to be confusing the British army of the 1990's with his sonority house at college.
'Speaking out' would have got me a beating and then daily abuse. These guys were thick as pigshit, been in 12 years or more, extremely violent and racist whose actions were backed up by the chain of command. They weren't up for debate and if you had been there (if we are judging your personality on here) you would have got a daily beating until you went AWOL. I like to tell myself at 18, I was just a kid but I don't think I would have spoke out if I had been older and more confident about myself. Don't kid yourself if you had spoke out, it wouldn't have ended badly for you.
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| Woah now, remember its just some dude at the register giggling for whatever reason. Let's not project too much what motives and worldview he might have. |
You can bet your life, knowing Korea as we both do, there is going to be some unsavoury views on racial purity and mixed race realtionships lurking amongst the hard of thinking over there. It doesn't take much imagination to suss that one out.
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| I'm sorry that you can't handle honest negativity. |
I am sorry you don't seem to know the difference between 'honest negativity' and being a racist, sexist or a homophobe. It seems you lack these kind of basic social skills yourself and therefore, that is why a lot of your time is spent on here defending the bando when you should be out with friends that you don't clearly have.
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| There's no excuse for the fact that some people treat black folks and Asians differently, largely based on aggression and physical size. This silliness in NET countries is primitive and racist as well, but is rarely spoken of or condemned. Indeed, the victims are blamed. "Asians just need to stand up for themselves and fight back". |
It is condemned all the time and is in fact illegal to be racist. If someone is being racist towards me in the UK. I can report them to the police, can you do that in Korea?
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| Well, the people here have concluded at least in the case of overweight people, that it is better for people to be honest than to ignore the problem. |
You know there is a difference between advising someone how to tackle a weight problem and laughing at them and giving them verbal abuse, you seem to roll the whole thing into one and that is why your argument has no legs. (As per usual.) |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Well, since you didn't stand up and say what you honestly felt, we'll never know. I guess some people in certain cultures just can't change anything.
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| You can bet your life, knowing Korea as we both do, there is going to be some unsavoury views on racial purity and mixed race realtionships lurking amongst the hard of thinking over there. It doesn't take much imagination to suss that one out. |
Yes, but its a stretch to take some 21 year old kid whose free time is spent drinking, chasing skirt, and playing video games is developing a worldview and lifestyle around some sort of extremist political ideology.
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| I am sorry you don't seem to know the difference between 'honest negativity' and being a racist, sexist or a homophobe. It seems you lack these kind of basic social skills yourself and therefore, that is why a lot of your time is spent on here defending the bando when you should be out with friends that you don't clearly have. |
Dude, check what times I post. A bunch during work hours, minimal activity from 5PM-Drunk Thirty.
Dude, I've been around the block. Dealt with a lot of people back home who were blunt with what they said and didn't follow PC rules. Open racist talk, whatever. But everyone valued honesty over race.
The point isn't that racism isn't bad. It is.
The point is that if you laugh behind people's back and then get filled with disgust at people who laugh in someone's face, it makes you a hypocrite and a douche. If you're going to laugh at someone, have the guts to laugh at their face. Corporate not getting fired exceptions understood.
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| It is condemned all the time and is in fact illegal to be racist. If someone is being racist towards me in the UK. I can report them to the police, can you do that in Korea? |
Well it ain't illegal in the good ol' US of A. And thank goodness. I may not agree with what some people have to say, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.
Now are you claiming that the USA is not a developed country?
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| You know there is a difference between advising someone how to tackle a weight problem and laughing at them and giving them verbal abuse, you seem to roll the whole thing into one and that is why your argument has no legs. (As per usual.) |
Whatever. Too many times I've been around foreigners who openly laugh at Koreans for how they dress or other things.
And I can't accept someone who laughs behind people's backs getting all moral against people who laugh at someone in the face. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
The point is that if you laugh behind people's back and then get filled with disgust at people who laugh in someone's face, it makes you a hypocrite and a douche. If you're going to laugh at someone, have the guts to laugh at their face. Corporate not getting fired exceptions understood. |
How far along the aspergers spectrum are you? Really? Do you actually interact with other humans?
I was at a bar with a group with about 10 people recently. One of the Koreans with us kept saying "humans" instead of people. Like "There are so many humans here tonight!" or "The human who lives next to me is quite friendly". It sounded kind of funny. Not a big deal. I/someone could have corrected him, but it wasn't a huge issue. No one laughed while he was there. He was a lovely guy and I respected the way he was holding his own with a group of native speakers.
He left at about 12, about an hour later someone was telling a story and they used the word "human" instead of person. Everyone laughed. Not a long, mocking, *beep* you laugh. Just a laugh. And that was that.
Would it have been better to laugh at him, to his face and probably embarrass the guy? Of course it wouldn't.
Or the way it went down as explained above?
I'm not saying it is more honorable or any of the other rubbish you have brought into it. Would it have been better if someone took him aside and corrected him quietly? Maybe. But that in itself is kind of douchey.
No one at the bar thought they were being honorable or civilised by not laughing at him in his face. It is just the accepted mode of social interaction, so as not to hurt, embarrass or otherwise ridicule people in full view.
Laughing in someones face is rude. You know it as well as I do. You are being contrarian for the sake of it. You don't need to do that on every.single.issue. Pick your fights. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Well, since you didn't stand up and say what you honestly felt, we'll never know. I guess some people in certain cultures just can't change anything. |
People in life take educated estimates about what would happen if they took a course of action. Point being 'being upfront and honest' had very negative outcomes in regards the Malaysian private and he did not want that kind of hassle in his life. The fact that the racists had the backing of the chain of command compounded it - so you can see - being upfront about being a racist had negative effects for certain inividuals and the Malaysian gentleman in question would have rather his tormentors kept it to themselves.
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| Yes, but its a stretch to take some 21 year old kid whose free time is spent drinking, chasing skirt, and playing video games is developing a worldview and lifestyle around some sort of extremist political ideology. |
It doesn't take that much of a stretch at all, they are 21, not 10 years old. People are getting shot and killed at 21 in Iraq and Afghanistan an of course they are voting. I am sure their mental lexicon holds racist views if so desired.
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| Dude, check what times I post. A bunch during work hours, minimal activity from 5PM-Drunk Thirty. |
Who are you kidding steelrails - you have no mates
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Dude, I've been around the block. Dealt with a lot of people back home who were blunt with what they said and didn't follow PC rules. Open racist talk, whatever. But everyone valued honesty over race.
The point isn't that racism isn't bad. It is.
The point is that if you laugh behind people's back and then get filled with disgust at people who laugh in someone's face, it makes you a hypocrite and a douche. If you're going to laugh at someone, have the guts to laugh at their face. Corporate not getting fired exceptions understood. |
It would take someone with the most basic of social skills to even agree with your line of thought. I knew people were laughing behind my back in my last job - we all know to an extent it happens in our workplaces in Korea with the locals, but I am sure as glad they don't come up and try and humiliate me in public because then we would all have a problem.
It is the most basic rules of 'face' by laughing at someone to their face is not being 'honest' it is taking away the victims public face - you would have to be a grade 1 arsehole to even think that is a positive thing.
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| Well it ain't illegal in the good ol' US of A. |
Who gives a shit? We have seen how flawed your legal system is over the past few weeks.
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And thank goodness. I may not agree with what some people have to say, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.
Now are you claiming that the USA is not a developed country? |
It obviously isn't. More black people in jail than there was in apartheid South Africa. And though I like the idea of 'free speech'. 'Free speech' is not the freedom to belittle anyone, once upon a time in the UK - it was OK to racially abuse people, now it is not and apart from a few daily mail readers - everyone is happy about it.
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| Whatever. Too many times I've been around foreigners who openly laugh at Koreans for how they dress or other things. |
Some of the crap they come out with is a joke. Fan death, kimchi curing cancer and missing an open goal in the champions league final as happened with Park Ji Sun and treating it like a great sporting achievement are all points that are deserving of being mocked.
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| And I can't accept someone who laughs behind people's backs getting all moral against people who laugh at someone in the face. |
Well, that says a lot about you than the people you are criticising. That's for sure. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Laughing in someones face is rude. You know it as well as I do. |
Never said it wasn't. I simply said that people who act high and mighty over it, but go and laugh behind people's backs have no moral leg to stand on.
And in defense of to your facers, they have honesty going for them. They lack tact, but honesty IS a virtue.
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| being upfront about being a racist had negative effects for certain inividuals and the Malaysian gentleman in question would have rather his tormentors kept it to themselves. |
At least he knows he can't turn his back on them. Who knows? If they kept it secret they might just frag him one night or whatever. Now he knows he can't trust them.
If guns and killing are involved, trustworthiness and loyalty are good things to know. Not someone's ability to politely keep their thoughts to themselves.
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| It doesn't take that much of a stretch at all, they are 21, not 10 years old. People are getting shot and killed at 21 in Iraq and Afghanistan an of course they are voting. I am sure their mental lexicon holds racist views if so desired. |
Are you seriously saying the guy at Family Mart likely takes an active interest in politics? I'm not saying he doesn't, but that isn't exactly the demographic for that. Most young Koreans are rather ignorant, like all young people, of politics and issues like that.
Relax, he laughed at you, likely because you were foreign, maybe for some other reason, but likely not as part of his agenda which is in his manifesto.
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| Who are you kidding steelrails - you have no mates |
Care to wager? We could always use more beer money.
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It is the most basic rules of 'face' by laughing at someone to their face is not being 'honest' it is taking away the victims public face - you would have to be a grade 1 arsehole to even think that is a positive thing.
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And what, laughing behind their back saves their face? At least to their face someone can come up with a witty retort like "The Jerkstore called, they're running out of you." Or "I had sex with your wife."
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Who gives a shit? We have seen how flawed your legal system is over the past few weeks.
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So you don't believe in free speech, freedom of expression, and the free exchange of ideas? Only those ideas you don't find repulsive?
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| It obviously isn't. More black people in jail than there was in apartheid South Africa. |
If you claim that the US, the most powerful nation on the planet, the primary exporter of culture and new technology, and the one that tells your country what to do, is not "developed", then I don't know what is.
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| And though I like the idea of 'free speech'. 'Free speech' is not the freedom to belittle anyone |
Have fun when 90% of good standup comedy becomes illegal in England.
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| Some of the crap they come out with is a joke. Fan death, kimchi curing cancer and missing an open goal in the champions league final as happened with Park Ji Sun and treating it like a great sporting achievement are all points that are deserving of being mocked. |
In other words, you think its okay to dish it out, but you can't take it.
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| Well, that says a lot about you than the people you are criticising. That's for sure. |
Yes, if you laugh behind people's backs and get angry at people who laugh in someone's face you are a hypocrite. |
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