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Soft Machine
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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 Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The bottom line on K-pop is....it's what the majority of the population wants. It's what sells. On average, Koreans are much more in tune to the world of music than their western counterparts. The schools teach most kids how to read music in elementary school; kids go to extracurricular music academies; those with talent are basically streamlined into the music side of academia. Take a look at your average US symphony orchestra and notice the number of Koreans on all sorts of instruments. A Korean friend of mine wound up in San Antonio, Texas and was hired at a local university as an accompanist - despite her middling musical talent - 'cause there just weren't enough Americans who could play, let alone read.
There are fantastic musicians in Korea, but they are forced to either get a "real job" or go abroad to practice their trade 'cause of the saturation of musicians here. What passes as pop music here in Korea makes most of those well-studied musicans sick. Take Lee Ji Young, a fantastic jazz pianist who's toured with big name bands in the US, including Maynard Fergosun's and Terrance Blanchard's. She returned to Korea to form a band, but nobody pays attention - she sells a few hundred records and has a gig once a month, but, man, her band is hot. When they play in the US, there are packed houses. In Korea, people show up to be seen more than to listen....and even then, it's maximum 100 fans.
Look up Jazz Snobs Funk Addicts....great Korean funk-jazz. Yeah, there are similarities to Herbie and Zawinul, but the Koreaness of it all really shines out. There are dozens of bands of the same ilk, but the foreign crowd just isn't that deep into the local music culture. We just take the same shyte that's thrown to the lumpen. Bad music but easy to look at....and isn't that the same idea that many complain about in the US? Just look good and sell, the music will take care of itself. Style over substance.
Whew! I guess my point is: throw back the shyte and seek what you dig. It's out there, you'll just have to look beyond the obvious. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Soft Machine wrote: |
| The bottom line on K-pop is....it's what the majority of the population wants. |
And that says a lot.
There is some crappy pop in the US too, but the average person over 15 years old either scorns it or takes it with a grain of salt.
Sure, there may be decent music and plenty of real musicians in Korea, but the fact that the "good" stuff barely makes a blip here says a lot too.
I've heard some decent non K-poppy stuff through various friends (from hip-hop to jazz to emo to bossa nova) but the majority still sounded like weaker "sounds-like" versions of various western groups, sorry to say. It didn't grate the nerves like K-pop, so that was nice. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Soft Machine wrote: |
| The bottom line on K-pop is....it's what the majority of the population wants. |
And that says a lot.
There is some crappy pop in the US too, but the average person over 15 years old either scorns it or takes it with a grain of salt.
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If you think that a massive portion of the US pop music/Top 40 audience isn't people over the age of 15, you're really misguided. Some of pop music's biggest consumers are people aged 16-35 who club a lot and watch movies like "Amazing Spider Man 2" or whatever. And I read somewhere that soccer moms are also one of the biggest demographics for Top 40/pop music radio stations. There's a reason pop is Top 40. Rock music is nowhere near as strong as it once was- a lot of big sellers tend to be from bands that already made it big in the 60s-90s. Only exceptional albums for jazz/classical/vocal break out, and guess what? They usually have similar numbers in Korea. The one big trend buster is Country music. That doesn't sell almost anywhere but the US, but its the only consistent genre to disrupt the pop/hip hop stranglehold on the charts. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Soft Machine wrote: |
| The bottom line on K-pop is....it's what the majority of the population wants. |
And that says a lot.
There is some crappy pop in the US too, but the average person over 15 years old either scorns it or takes it with a grain of salt.
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If you think that a massive portion of the US pop music/Top 40 audience isn't people over the age of 15, you're really misguided. Some of pop music's biggest consumers are people aged 16-35 who club a lot and watch movies like "Amazing Spider Man 2" or whatever. |
So? There's trashy tastes in both countries. The main difference is that in Korea the trash is COMPLETELY dominant and pretty much NOBODY scorns it or even questions it. In fact, it's their pride and joy. If you can't see that obvious difference, you are the misguided one.
Also, I stand by my statement. Sure some American adults listen to top 40 and go to clubs that play it, but for most (yes, the majority), they don't love it or worship it, and certainly don't have any illusions that it's the ultimate in music. It's just fun trash that they take with a grain of salt and they certainly don't take it that seriously and they certainly have plenty of other favorites.
But even if we were to take all your stated points as true, K-pop is still a copy of western style pop down to the letter, so ... there you go. Feel free to post more '90's K-pop hits that prove that point even more. |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Have you read the comments left on Korean news articles about kpop? The top comments are usually people saying how shitty it is. The majority of Korean adults do not worship Kpop or even listen to it. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| When I worked at a public school, I had a teacher's class where I asked them if they liked these kpop groups and the answer was unanimously 'no'. Instead, these women said they liked singers like Adele. The kpop groups were too young they said. I was disappointed because none of them had heard of the Butthole Surfers. When I played a song by them, I thought I was going to be fired. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The main difference is that in Korea the trash is COMPLETELY dominant and pretty much NOBODY scorns it or even questions it. |
Except anyone over 38 or so who demands only trot and maybe the occasional 80s song when everyone gets dragged out to Noraebang. But hey, that's an infinitesimal part of the population. When the Ajumma bang bus or some election truck (you know that caters to the demographic that bothers to vote) drives by its always 2NE1, not some trot song.
Although in counterpoint it always is amazing how there is a decent number of old taxi-driver types who bust Korean rap (not other KPop, just the rap) on their stereos. That isn't really something you'd see back home, so there is that. Maybe they're pissed off or something.
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| In fact, it's their pride and joy. If you can't see that obvious difference, you are the misguided one. |
Really? Who are these people you have friendships with? A lot of my Korean friends over age 28 or so, find all the new groups bewildering and just reminisce about the good old days of 90s Kpop and how it was less well done, but more fun. A lot of other people are more into classical or jazz or foreign music or K-Indies. Older people are mostly trot and foreign Oldies or classical.
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| Sure some American adults listen to top 40 and go to clubs that play it, but for most (yes, the majority), they don't love it or worship it, and certainly don't have any illusions that it's the ultimate in music. It's just fun trash that they take with a grain of salt and they certainly don't take it that seriously and they certainly have plenty of other favorites. |
Sounds like most Korean adults I know. Most of them over 30 could give a flying crap about SNSD or EXO or the latest group.
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| K-pop is still a copy of western style pop down to the letter, so ... there you go. |
So what? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| When I worked at a public school, I had a teacher's class where I asked them if they liked these kpop groups and the answer was unanimously 'no'. Instead, these women said they liked singers like Adele. The kpop groups were too young they said. I was disappointed because none of them had heard of the Butthole Surfers. When I played a song by them, I thought I was going to be fired. |
Brilliant.
From Kpop to the Butthole Surfers.
I bet it went over like an avalanche coming down a mountain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4WUlNSx_Wk |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| K-pop is still a copy of western style pop down to the letter, so ... there you go. |
So what? |
So... looks like you can finally admit that. Glad to see you coming around. You used to struggle with that fact or try to point fingers the other way.
Beyond the argument about demographics and who listens to what, the fact remains that Koreans of all ages tend to view mainstream K-pop with quite a lot of pride. They may not listen to it religiously but it's a badge of pride and they all know it pretty well and watch them on all the TV shows. By contrast, ask an American or Canadian adult about Britany, Beiber, Katy Perry, or whatever top 40 and you generally aren't going to get a very positive response.
So again, K-pop is what the majority here want, it's mostly copied remixes of western pop, and there isn't much else on the radar, ...and that's saying a lot.
Now, if "trot" was rocking the airways and videos, I'd be all for it. Some of that stuff kinda rocks!  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| o... looks like you can finally admit that. Glad to see you coming around. You used to struggle with that fact or try to point fingers the other way. |
I admitted that Kpop these days has little appeal to me since page one where my first post was me ringing a gong. Then on page 4 I just said that Koreans that did Kpop didn't care about making something new, they just wanted to take something that was there and try and be really good at it.
The only thing I did was explain why it is the way it is today. I wasn't struggling to admit anything.
What I'm wondering from you is why does it matter anywhich way if it is a copy?
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the fact remains that Koreans of all ages tend to view mainstream K-pop with quite a lot of pride. They may not listen to it religiously but it's a badge of pride and they all know it pretty well and watch them on all the TV shows...So again, K-pop is what the majority here want, it's mostly copied remixes of western pop, and there isn't much else on the radar, ...and that's saying a lot.
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Right, but so is Top 40 music back home, hence why its Top 40. Just because you and your circle of friends may have moved on from pop music after high school, doesn't mean that it isn't massively popular back home. Do you seriously believe what you're writing? Are you saying this from your extensive experience hanging out with age 40+ Koreans?
As for trot, it is huge for anyone over the age of 50, and many over 40, which is a massive demographic here.
As I said, if what you were saying were true then when you go out to Noraebang and get on the ajumma bang bus or hop in some old guy's car, you'd have EXO blasting and stickers everywhere. You don't. You get trot. Election candidates don't blast Big Bang, they blast "Hwangjinne" why? Because old people vote and old people don't care about Big Bang. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
What I'm wondering from you is why does it matter anywhich way if it is a copy?
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Another common SR defense tactic: when you can't defend against a criticism, point the other way, and when that doesn't work, simply question the relevance of the criticism. Good job.
Why doesn't it matter?
It's a "cultural export" but it's all copies of western stuff. Hmm...
It's the dominant form of music here, and is a badge of honor... yet it's all copies. Hmm...
Being a defender of almost all things Korean, I'm not surprised you don't care about something being a copy.
Well, it's relevant to the merit of the art form itself, which is one aspect of what we are discussing here.
Trying to convince people that Korean adults DON'T really listen to that much mainstream K-pop isn't really helping your case much either.
Trot? Yeah... for the over 60 crowd maybe! |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| From my ten years of listening to Korean adults through work I'd say that yes, very few of them will admit to liking K Pop - the exception being the odd sleazebag ajoshi who'll admit he likes ogling the girl groups - and generally yes, Korean adults are proud of the 'fact' that K pop is famous all over the world. In fact, that expression tends to go together with K Pop here as often as 'comfortable' goes with 'convenient', 'food' goes with 'delicious' and 'relieve' goes with 'stress' |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Why doesn't it matter?
It's a "cultural export" but it's all copies of western stuff. Hmm...
It's the dominant form of music here, and is a badge of honor... yet it's all copies. Hmm... |
So what? Brazil didn't invent soccer. They take pride in it. I don't see what the issue is.
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Being a defender of almost all things Korean, I'm not surprised you don't care about something being a copy.
Well, it's relevant to the merit of the art form itself, which is one aspect of what we are discussing here. |
KPop isn't art. It's entertainment. Anyone who tries to claim its art is a blathering idiot.
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Trying to convince people that Korean adults DON'T really listen to that much mainstream K-pop isn't really helping your case much either.
Trot? Laughing Yeah... for the over 60 crowd maybe! |
So far we have Stain and catflap, not apologists by anyone's definition saying that adults don't listen to Kpop.
Again, if what you are saying is true WHY DOESN'T the ajumma bang bus, the ajosshi taking his staff out to the noraebang, and the over-40 crowd in general blast Kpop and have a bunch of SNSD stickers everywhere?
If they're such big fans, why don't you take some 40+ year olds out to the noraebang, punch in the latest hit, and hand them a mic?
We all know why- Because they don't listen to it and don't give a crap besides a vague sense of "Hey, Korean music is being listened to around the world thanks to Psy, that's really neat."
Dude, you're seriously delusional if you think the over-40 crowd is running around listening to the latest Kpop hits. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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Why doesn't it matter?
It's a "cultural export" but it's all copies of western stuff. Hmm...
It's the dominant form of music here, and is a badge of honor... yet it's all copies. Hmm... |
So what? Brazil didn't invent soccer. They take pride in it. I don't see what the issue is.
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You sure don't.
For one thing, Brazil doesn't promote soccer as a "cultural export" and try to market it worldwide as their own unique thing.
Also, taking pride in something you blatantly copied and then try to pass it off as your own thing is strange. This fact alone makes K-pop a hard pill to swallow. But, gotta have pride in something I guess.
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KPop isn't art. It's entertainment. Anyone who tries to claim its art is a blathering idiot.
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An idiot would be someone who can't see that it can be BOTH things. As for a "blathering idiot" ahem, cough.... ah never mind.
And whose side are you on anyway? I tried to boost it up a bit with some flattering semantics and now you're tearing it back down again? Ok, be my guest...
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Dude, you're seriously delusional if you think the over-40 crowd is running around listening to the latest Kpop hits. |
"Dude"... you're seriously delusional if you think I give a crap either way.
I never said "over 40"... you did.
No matter what % of them actually listen to it, which you have no idea about, and are assuming "expert" status on it as usual, the issue is the attitude towards it and the fact that it's the main game in town here... which again... SAYS A LOT.
...and on and on it goes....
I'll leave the "over 40" noreabang test cases to you though. Have fun with it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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and try to market it worldwide as their own unique thing.
Also, taking pride in something you blatantly copied and then try to pass it off as your own thing is strange. |
Are they really trying to market it as their own unique thing? Aren't they just saying "hey, we sing and dance really well and put it in a nice package?"
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| No matter what % of them actually listen to it, which you have no idea about, and are assuming "expert" status on it as usual, the issue is the attitude towards it and the fact that it's the main game in town here... which again... SAYS A LOT. |
It doesn't say anything. It only says something to people who are looking for a reason to say something because they have issues.
And you do have an idea of what % of adults and people over 40 listen to Kpop? The 40+ demographic is a HUGE % of the population. Are you saying that these people are lining up to get an autograph from 2NE1?
And no, trot is the main game in town. Kpop is the one that has been exported overseas into China, Japan, and SE Asia and is a hit with young consumers, so merchants and whatnot will blast it in their stores and bars to get people to spend money.
Again, if Kpop were huge with the population over 40, you'd see them singing it at noraebangs, blasting it during their bus tours, lining up at SNSD concerts, putting it on instead of some 50 year old trot star on the TV in the restaurant, and humming it to themselves.
Kpop is huge in the 8-35 demographic. Big surprise. Pop is huge with the 8-35 demographic the world over. |
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