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Affirmative Consent in California
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KimchiNinja

Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject:

Let's get real... Women aren't stupid, they put themselves in situations like dressing slutty, going unescorted into a situation, getting drunk, and going into a private space with a male. Women are very good at reading intentions/emotions and know what is going to happen. Nobody forced them to make these decisions. Personal responsibility. It's always the women's responsibility and we must assume what happened is exactly what she wanted to happen, unless the guy "jumped out of the bushes" or "put a pill in my drink", in which case it is real rape. Hard evidence or nothing.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:16 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

I truly do not know what elements you are talking about. To be honest, I am still confused about what your point is. Are you talking about young men and women going to parties together? It seems you are dealing in vague cultural critiques and cryptic references to history and other cultures.

"By rendering taboo conduct which would leave a woman vulnerable," seems like a concise, grammatical sentence to me, and was even accompanied by examples, but evidently to Leon here it might as well be the Dao De Jing. Too cryptic!

I can't help you.

You gave two examples-university parties, and then argued that men and women should be supervised when dating- and that's it. That is not much in the way of elements of society. Also, why just assume that these earlier times had less rape? Cryptic might have been giving credit where it wasn't due, I'll stick with vague then.

Curious though, are there any current cultures living up to your one sentence maxim? If one wanted to be uncharitable one could say it is similar to the argument used in places like Saudi Arabia.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

曲則全，枉則直，窪則盈，弊則新，少則得，多則惑。是以聖人抱一為天下式。不自見，故明；不自是，故彰；不自伐，故有功；不自矜，故長。夫唯不爭，故天下莫能與之爭。古之所謂曲則全者，豈虛言哉！誠全而歸之。

Equally comprehensible, right?

-Edit: Actually, I'm going to walk that second statement back. I don't know a particularly large amount about Saudi Arabian culture in particular. If Leon wants to believe that society encouraging women to expose themselves to situations where rape risk is relatively high doesn't actually increase occurrences of rape, then that's up to him, and if he doesn't believe it, then he's not actually arguing with anything I'm saying. Talking about specifics would require data that I don't have and which usually isn't reliable anyway.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject:

I actually missed your reply, Sector7G. Sorry about that.

Sector7G wrote:

Okay, but I guess I am still confused as to what point you were trying to make, or at least how your point that some cultures try to keep their women from being taken advantage of is germane to this thread, which is about date or acquaintance rape on US college campuses. And what does a victim's hesitance to cooperate have to do with it?? You have to admit that reporting a rape would be harder for a victim to do than it would be for someone to report their car was broken into.

Well, first off, you were the one who posted the article about victim's hesistance to aid in prosecution, not me, and you brought it up in response to Titus's statistics about false accusations, calling it "the flip side" of the matter. Why you'd question the relevance of your own post, I don't know. That said, I think it does have some relevance. First and foremost, victim's hesistance also leads to actually guilty rapists remaining free, which is problematic in itself. But beyond that, victims' hesistance is part of what makes rapes difficult to prosecute. Rape being difficult to prosecute results in many rapes not ending in convictions. Many rapes not ending in convictions results in angry feminists pushing their ideology. This in turn results in a number of vexing things, one of which was the law which started this thread. That's what I see as the relevance.

Sector7G wrote:

Also, you changed from describing situations that "give rise to" rape to situations that "promote" rape, and not sure where you are going with that either. I bet that a large proportion of these cases involve alcohol, whether it is at a party or just a one on one date. Is it wise for a woman to drink so much that she puts herself in a dangerous situation like that? Definitely not! But does she deserve to be taken advantage of?No.

You say you don't see where I'm going, but then you go ahead and point out where I'm going. It's wise to avoid situations where there is a substantially increased likelihood of criminal victimization, and cultural norms and taboos which reinforce wise behavior in this regard -- let's not pretend we don't know what such things are, I've given examples regarding both drinking and avoiding private encounters, and other examples like avoid high-risk locations entirely, not traveling alone when it can be avoided, and being extremely careful about initiating sexual contact should be more than clear to anyone -- make criminal victimization less likely. Yet when one tries to give wise advice in this regard, one is attacked. Even now, look at the addendum you tacked on: "But does she deserve to be taken advantage of?No." I didn't say anyone deserved to be taken advantage of, and honestly, I don't even think I implied it. I've got a daughter myself, I don't want her to be raped, so I'll be giving her wise (albeit politically incorrect in America) advice about how to avoid that. I hope she'll take that advice instead of listening to the, "I shouldn't have to!" crowd, but if she does not, I'd never tell her she deserved it, both because it would hurt her, and because it's not true.

Do you understand? I don't think any of this is remotely unclear, which is why Leon pretending to not understand how getting drunk at university parties could lead to increase risk of rape is absurd.

Last edited by Fox on Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:12 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

Quote:

Frequent, heavy episodic drinking increases college women’s chances of experiencing rape by eight-fold (Mohler-Kuo et al., 2004).

The California legislature cannot really change cultural norms, except in one specific instance.

Leon made a great point about fraternity parties and culture; legislation might regulate university interaction with and support of fraternities, which are rape factories.

http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php

Quote:

Two different longitudinal studies have found that fraternity men are three times more likely to commit sexual assault than other college men (Foubert, Newberry, & Tatum, 2007; Loh, Gidycz, Lobo, & Luthra, 2005.)

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/how-colleges-could-get-rid-of-fraternities/284176/2/

Quote:

Some small liberal arts schools, like Colby, Bowdoin, and Williams, have successfully removed Greek life from campus without taking huge financial hits. Colby even saw a boost in alumni support: Their senior associate dean of students said alumni applauding their decision to remove fraternities “more than made up” for the loss in annual giving from supporters of Greek life. However, small liberal arts schools can make decisions that big state universities cannot.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:30 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

Well, with the help of google translate, almost, but not quite. The bit in bold, I am not arguing or commenting on that.

You said:

Fox wrote:

If so, it's pretty easy to understand why so many cultures in history have structured themselves so as to naturally minimize the situations which give rise to rape in the first place.

Which is an interesting statement, but then you didn't mention a single one of the many cultures that have cared enough about rape to structure themselves a specific way. That is the cryptic thing. You make this statement like its true, but you never mention how prevalent rape was in these cultures, or what kinds of structures you are talking about.

KimchiNinja

Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:41 am Post subject:

Just use your brain guys, how would a woman ever end up alone with a guy? Nobody smart would ever go behind closed doors with a guy, unless they intended to have sex. What do they think is the purpose, tea and crumpets?

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:42 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

I actually missed your reply, Sector7G. Sorry about that.

It's ok, and for my part, sorry for taking so long to reply - I am living on Florida time.

Fox wrote:

I was not questioning the relevance of my post, but the relevance of your response to my post, and I think you knew that - I am inclined to lob the "too intelligent" and "pretending to not understand" charge right back at you. The "flip side" of the false accusations claim that I was getting at, was, that regardless of how much of it actually goes on, there is really not a whole lot of prosecuting going on in campus cases anyway , at least in Florida, and that is how I stated it in the opening line of that post. And I still do not see what "cultural differences" have to do with that anyway.

Fox wrote:

That said, I think it does have some relevance. First and foremost, victim's hesistance also leads to actually guilty rapists remaining free, which is problematic in itself. But beyond that, victims' hesistance is part of what makes rapes difficult to prosecute. Rape being difficult to prosecute results in many rapes not ending in convictions. Many rapes not ending in convictions results in angry feminists pushing their ideology. This in turn results in a number of vexing things, one of which was the law which started this thread. That's what I see as the relevance.

While I understand that is how you feel now, you have to admit that that is a fairly long and convoluted way to get from A to Z, and I don't know how you expected me to know that is what you meant before when you accused me of pretending. Also, though I agree that the hesitancy of victims to cooperate with prosecution is problematic, it is completely understandable, and they should not necessarily be faulted for it.

Fox wrote:

I don't have a disagreement with this - I agree that educating our daughters to be careful(I have one too), is a worthy topic. But I don't think one has to be in one crowd or another, one can be in both, and men who force themselves on women need to be held accountable. I think you would agree with that.

For the most part you have not added anything that I have a major disagreement with, though I feel you go a bit far with the "feminist ideology" rant. I just don't know how what you said about cultural differences had anything to with with my post, which, again, was about how few campus date rape cases actually get prosecuted.

Sector7G

Joined: 24 May 2008

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Sector7G wrote:

I did not use the phrase "women lying about rape".

Yes, I realize that. Yet I wrote what I did, so it's clear what I think your avoidance of that phrase means.

You know, I really should have called you on this before. How does not using a phrase because it does not convey my meaning amount to "avoidance" of a phrase? You could pull out any phrase that I have yet to utter and say I am "avoiding " it. Reminds me of the Jean-Paul Sartre joke when he was sitting at the cafe and ordered coffee without cream. But you actually changed both sides of my "flip side" statement.

I wrote:

Sector7G wrote:

The following article is kind of the flip side of the "false charge" claim - it shows how few campus cases are actually prosecuted, at least in Florida,

You changed it to:

Fox wrote:

So the flipside of women lying about rape is women refusing to cooperate with prosecutors in trying their own rape cases?

Your version completely mischaracterizes mine. No wonder I did not know what you meant. Everything you said after this point was based on something I never said.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject:

Sector7G wrote:

1) Titus, to whom you were responding, mentioned false rape claims. That's where the "lying about rape" part came in.
2) Your article talked primarily about how alleged rape victims are often uncooperative. That's where the part about uncooperative victims came in.
3) The obvious absurdity of those two interplaying factors is why I suggested it was better to simply avoid rape to the greatest extent possible in the first place, something directly related to cultural differences.

When you complained about me not getting what you were saying, you did in fact misunderstand it seems, because what I was doing was responding to the actual content of the article you posted, not your narrow, suggested interpretation of it. After all, the article didn't merely mention that rape prosecutions were low, it gave some information regarding why that was the case. That's also why I wrote, "Yes, I realize that. Yet I wrote what I did, so it's clear what I think your avoidance of that phrase means." Evidently it wasn't in fact clear, so perhaps that particular phrase really was a little too cryptic.

Sector7G wrote:

I'm glad you understand now. I thought you'd understand before because the chain of logic seems quite clear to me.

Sector7G wrote:

Also, though I agree that the hesitancy of victims to cooperate with prosecution is problematic, it is completely understandable, and they should not necessarily be faulted for it.

No, now hold on. It's understandable, but not faulted? No, we're talking about serious criminals here. If rape actually happens, then that means a rapist -- a man who roams around forcing women to have sex with him -- is present in the community. If a woman's cooperation and testimony can help prevent him from raping again, then she's being wildly selfish to withhold it. I'm compassionate, but I'm not some sort of "emotions fundamentalist." Sometimes doing the right thing can be painful, sometimes doing the right thing won't make you happy in the moment, but that doesn't mean that not doing it is excusable.

Sector7G wrote:

I'm glad we're in agreement, though I suspect you may disagree with my clarification regarding the responsibility of rape victims to cooperate with the police and provide testimony in order to get rapists off of the streets.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

The bit in bold, I am not arguing or commenting on that.

The bit in bold is directly relevant. Whether or not such conduct is encouraged or tolerated is a manifestation of culture. When I try to describe such a thing in the abstract, you play, "I don't know what you mean," and when I try to give concrete examples, you say, "I am not arguing or commenting on that," but then ask for more examples. You keep asking me to explain how cultures structure themselves, but a culture isn't something you can see or touch, you can only point out its manifestations. From examples, you can move up to values, but values are abstract and intangible, so I already know the reponse I'd get from you if I started talking in such terms. It's like some sort of perverse anti-conversation, wherein meaning is destroyed and mutual understanding is abolished.

Leon wrote:

Which is an interesting statement, but then you didn't mention a single one of the many cultures that have cared enough about rape to structure themselves a specific way. That is the cryptic thing.

If you had approached the issue with good faith and used my proferred examples to try to actually reach my meaning, perhaps an exploration of various cultures and how their values and conduct interact with the topic of rape would have been worthwhile. I'm not going to try to keep kicking your football, Lucy.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

The bit in bold, I am not arguing or commenting on that.

The bit in bold is directly relevant. Whether or not such conduct is encouraged or tolerated is a manifestation of culture. When I try to describe such a thing in the abstract, you play, "I don't know what you mean," and when I try to give concrete examples, you say, "I am not arguing or commenting on that. But please, give me more examples." You keep asking me to explain how cultures structure themselves, but a culture isn't something you can see or touch, you can only point out its manifestations. From examples, you can move up to values, but values are abstract and intangible, so I already know the reponse I'd get from you if I started talking in such terms. It's like some sort of perverse anti-conversation, wherein meaning is destroyed and mutual understanding is abolished.

Leon wrote:

Which is an interesting statement, but then you didn't mention a single one of the many cultures that have cared enough about rape to structure themselves a specific way. That is the cryptic thing.

I know what you mean, and of course I've known what you've meant all along. It is a common sentiment, not especially interesting, but I did approach the history aspect in a good faith manner. Your example of university parties, simply didn't speak to the idea that a wide range of cultures structure themselves to make rape less likely. Especially when I pointed out that the Frat parties where a high proportion of these rapes are a new phenomenon that mostly occur in the U.S. and maybe Canada. Young people getting together drinking is not analogous to frat type parties as Kuros pointed out.

We don't have to continue with this. I am not interested in your meaning, I guess that I wasn't clear enough about that, but the historical idea sounded like it was worth exploring. You talk of manifestations, wouldn't the natural manifestation be whether rape is occurring more often or not?

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject:

Leon A wrote:

I am actually curious as well

Leon B wrote:

I am not interested in your meaning

---------------------

Leon A wrote:

what are you talking about?

Leon B wrote:

I know what you mean, and of course I've known what you've meant all along.

---------------------

Leon A wrote:

Which is an interesting statement

Leon B wrote:

It is a common sentiment, not especially interesting,

---------------------

Leon wrote:

We don't have to continue with this.

I'm glad to hear that.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Leon A wrote:

I am actually curious as well

Leon B wrote:

I am not interested in your meaning

---------------------

Leon A wrote:

what are you talking about?

Leon B wrote:

I know what you mean, and of course I've known what you've meant all along.

---------------------

Leon A wrote:

Which is an interesting statement

Leon B wrote:

It is a common sentiment, not especially interesting,

---------------------

Leon wrote:

We don't have to continue with this.

I'm glad to hear that.

Wow, I sure do look foolish once you get rid of all the context.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject:

Given all the statements in question are about the same, single core proposition -- I've been talking about the same thing the entire time, after all -- there's no essential context being lost here. If you think the Leon portrayed above seems foolish, well, that's something about which you can concern yourself.

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