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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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 Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Plain Meaning wrote: |
| Coltronator wrote: |
Now the issue is SR claims is that Uighurs are victims of institutionalized or worse nationalized racism. From what I have read is that prior to the 2000's that was certainly the case. There were policies in place that kept anyone of the non Han minorities out of the top levels of local governments. As well as an open policy of organized governmental Sinicization of the Korean, Mongol, Tibetan, Uighur, etc areas where there was a majority minority population with forced/incentivized relocations of Han peoples to these areas.
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China's policies towards many of its ethnic minorities is far more tolerant and accepting than your posts suggest; as a matter of practicality the Chinese State can afford to offer minorities incentives because they only constitute about 8% of the population. As for forced relocations, these predominantly occur regardless of race, and the Chinese government has relocated many many Han for government projects, including infrastructure projects preceding the 2008 Olympics.
That said, yes, in China it is better to be Han.
Nonetheless, comparing Chinese imperialism with Korean race relations appears to be a matter of apples and oranges. The Chinese state has problems with two minorities: the Western Uigher and the Southwestern Tibetans. This results from the Communist Chinese government's reassertion of the imperialist Qing Dynasty's borders.
What happyinhenan is describing is the quality of life for foreigners and Han perceptions of outsiders versus Korean perceptions of outsiders. A lot of times Koreans will display polite or benign racism towards whites, assuming that whites cannot speak Korean and offering to help them while in Korea. Often this assumption is sound, but not always.
Koreans are simply more race-oriented than Chinese. This becomes obvious when you poll Koreans and Chinese on the blood versus environment questions. Koreans overwhelmingly ascribe importance to blood, whereas Chinese are more likely to point to environment.
It is also a matter of cultural confidence. Koreans feel terribly threatened of outsiders and highly prize racial purity. Han Chinese feel incredibly confident about their ability to assimilate others and highly prize the cultural hegemony of Han over other Asian races. |
Good post! |
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Cave Dweller
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
Yeah again while SR may be off on some of the facts or may have strange opinions. He tends to have more concise and clear writing. Happyinhenan, you prose.... we aren't writing poetry. We are having a debate. There is a place for Poetry in debate in the form of quotes or used in questions and for emphasis but that isn't what Steelrails has issue with.
There is no such thing as thinking outside the Box when it comes to explanations. There is technical writing and there is poor writing.
In addition, why do people feel the need to use strawmen to refute what Steelrails says. There is no need to create things he did not say just to then attack him by proxy. If you want to start comparing racism views of countries. Don't assume his views. Ask him straight up. "How do you feel the racism situations in China, Korea, and Japan, compare and differ? And which one has the bigger issue with it?" Now if he make the claim you think he will make you can now accurately challenge his assertions. |
Your comment is pure irony, given that SR is the king of the strawman argument. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Cave Dweller wrote: |
| Coltronator wrote: |
Yeah again while SR may be off on some of the facts or may have strange opinions. He tends to have more concise and clear writing. Happyinhenan, you prose.... we aren't writing poetry. We are having a debate. There is a place for Poetry in debate in the form of quotes or used in questions and for emphasis but that isn't what Steelrails has issue with.
There is no such thing as thinking outside the Box when it comes to explanations. There is technical writing and there is poor writing.
In addition, why do people feel the need to use strawmen to refute what Steelrails says. There is no need to create things he did not say just to then attack him by proxy. If you want to start comparing racism views of countries. Don't assume his views. Ask him straight up. "How do you feel the racism situations in China, Korea, and Japan, compare and differ? And which one has the bigger issue with it?" Now if he make the claim you think he will make you can now accurately challenge his assertions. |
Your comment is pure irony, given that SR is the king of the strawman argument. |
Steelwails brain is made of straw.  |
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Coltronator
Joined: 04 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Just because he uses them doesn't improve your argument. It just means both people have poorly constructed arguments.
Despite how SR posts, he gets more vitriol than he deserves. It is like it is the cool thing to do on the board.
Also. happyinhenan, that was well said, except one issue.
Uighurs are most certainly not the same race as Han, et al Chinese. It is not a similar situation as Slav vs. Celt as those both come from the same paleolithic population bottleneck & migration being Caucasus/West of the Urals peoples. Han peoples are part of the southern Indochina migration while Uighurs are part of the central Asian plateau group. The bottlenecks are thousands(maybe a couple ten thousand) years apart and make them as different as a Slav is from an Uighur. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
Uighurs are most certainly not the same race as Han, et al Chinese. It is not a similar situation as Slav vs. Celt as those both come from the same paleolithic population bottleneck & migration being Caucasus/West of the Urals peoples. Han peoples are part of the southern Indochina migration while Uighurs are part of the central Asian plateau group. The bottlenecks are thousands(maybe a couple ten thousand) years apart and make them as different as a Slav is from an Uighur. |
OK, the Basques, the Welsh, the original Britons or any any peoples with their origins in western Europe - they are seen as the same race as the Slavs - and the latter day settlers into the region now known as 'The Celtic countries'.
Funny that in the United States - a Uighur, a Cantonese speaker from Guangdong and a Mandarin speaker from Henan would all be classified as Asian American in the broader sense and in regards their ethnicity - they would all be 'Chinese-American'. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Coltronator wrote: |
| Despite how SR posts, he gets more vitriol than he deserves. It is like it is the cool thing to do on the board. |
What do you think he deserves? Dude is a troll and little more than that. I'd say that he likes the attention, tbh.
As for people that have chimed in without having ever lived in both of the countries for any extended period of time yet saying one is more this and that than the other, I don't know what to say about that other than gtfoh. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SHGator428 wrote: |
| Coltronator wrote: |
| Despite how SR posts, he gets more vitriol than he deserves. It is like it is the cool thing to do on the board. |
What do you think he deserves? Dude is a troll and little more than that. I'd say that he likes the attention, tbh.
As for people that have chimed in without having ever lived in both of the countries for any extended period of time yet saying one is more this and that than the other, I don't know what to say about that other than gtfoh. |
He's not a troll, he just gets so deep into arguments that he forgets what he's arguing about. He's probably one of the more earnest posters on the board, actually. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| SHGator428 wrote: |
| Coltronator wrote: |
| Despite how SR posts, he gets more vitriol than he deserves. It is like it is the cool thing to do on the board. |
What do you think he deserves? Dude is a troll and little more than that. I'd say that he likes the attention, tbh.
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Le sigh, just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them a troll. I have a point of view I try to express. I take each person's post as they come with no regard for personal attacks. Even atwood I will look at what he writes first, then decide whether I agree or not. Often I don't, occasionally I do. I'd like to note that me and Fox have disagreed over a number of things, yet are able to debate each other civilly and without insults and acknowledge good points the other is making.
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| As for people that have chimed in without having ever lived in both of the countries for any extended period of time yet saying one is more this and that than the other, I don't know what to say about that other than gtfoh. |
No one said that though. My issue was him glossing over issues of racism in China. I don't think you have to be from the USA to point inconsistencies in a statement like this:
"and the aggressive stereotyping of foreigners by the American media is also largely absent - apart from the Middle Easterners of course."
Of course one would immediately point out that there other policies and ethnic insensitivities. Screaming "You haven't lived there, how would you know" doesn't really address whether those issues exist or not. And if you said something like "I live in America, there is no racism against Hispanics", wouldn't that at least raise an eyebrow? Wouldn't pointing out a few articles on google or a Hispanic-rights organization be legitimate?
Now, I'm not saying whether or not America is better or worse than any place, only that the picture being painted is rather rosy compared to the information out there and common sense things, like in the case of the Uighurs THEM SETTING OFF BOMBS AND ENGAGING IN MASS KNIFE ATTACKS TO PROTEST HOW THEIR ETHNIC GROUP IS TREATED. That's some pretty extreme stuff. People tend not to do that and organize in such a fashion unless they feel like they are really getting shafted. They aren't raising a religious or political banner, but an ethnic one.
| Quote: |
Nonetheless, comparing Chinese imperialism with Korean race relations appears to be a matter of apples and oranges. The Chinese state has problems with two minorities: the Western Uigher and the Southwestern Tibetans. This results from the Communist Chinese government's reassertion of the imperialist Qing Dynasty's borders.
What happyinhenan is describing is the quality of life for foreigners and Han perceptions of outsiders versus Korean perceptions of outsiders. A lot of times Koreans will display polite or benign racism towards whites, assuming that whites cannot speak Korean and offering to help them while in Korea. Often this assumption is sound, but not always.
Koreans are simply more race-oriented than Chinese. This becomes obvious when you poll Koreans and Chinese on the blood versus environment questions. Koreans overwhelmingly ascribe importance to blood, whereas Chinese are more likely to point to environment.
It is also a matter of cultural confidence. Koreans feel terribly threatened of outsiders and highly prize racial purity. Han Chinese feel incredibly confident about their ability to assimilate others and highly prize the cultural hegemony of Han over other Asian races. |
Well, there certainly might be something to what you are saying. Although I would say that while racist/anti-ethnic policies may manifest themselves differently, they are still present, possibly, even probably, less so in Korea, but nonetheless they are there and DO affect significant populations. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| SHGator428 wrote: |
| Coltronator wrote: |
| Despite how SR posts, he gets more vitriol than he deserves. It is like it is the cool thing to do on the board. |
What do you think he deserves? Dude is a troll and little more than that. I'd say that he likes the attention, tbh.
As for people that have chimed in without having ever lived in both of the countries for any extended period of time yet saying one is more this and that than the other, I don't know what to say about that other than gtfoh. |
He's not a troll, he just gets so deep into arguments that he forgets what he's arguing about. He's probably one of the more earnest posters on the board, actually. |
He is a troll in the respect that he posts just to get people riled up and hopes that someone responds so that he can have a "debate". Is he earnest? Yes. Does he make up shit to get a rise and misquote people in his bomb posting haste? Yes. |
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GJoeM
Joined: 05 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| SR's a troll. He wants a fight to get a reaction, not to share or debate. |
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SHGator428
Joined: 05 Sep 2014
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| As for people that have chimed in without having ever lived in both of the countries for any extended period of time yet saying one is more this and that than the other, I don't know what to say about that other than gtfoh. |
No one said that though. |
Many people have said that. Go back and read the thread and not just posts that you were a part of. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| GJoeM wrote: |
| SR's a troll. He wants a fight to get a reaction, not to share or debate. |
HappyinHenan likes this. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SHGator428 wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| SHGator428 wrote: |
| Coltronator wrote: |
| Despite how SR posts, he gets more vitriol than he deserves. It is like it is the cool thing to do on the board. |
What do you think he deserves? Dude is a troll and little more than that. I'd say that he likes the attention, tbh.
As for people that have chimed in without having ever lived in both of the countries for any extended period of time yet saying one is more this and that than the other, I don't know what to say about that other than gtfoh. |
He's not a troll, he just gets so deep into arguments that he forgets what he's arguing about. He's probably one of the more earnest posters on the board, actually. |
He is a troll in the respect that he posts just to get people riled up and hopes that someone responds so that he can have a "debate". Is he earnest? Yes. Does he make up shit to get a rise and misquote people in his bomb posting haste? Yes. |
HappyinHenan likes this. |
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happyinhenan
Joined: 01 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Now, I'm not saying whether or not America is better or worse than any place, only that the picture being painted is rather rosy compared to the information out there and common sense things, like in the case of the Uighurs THEM SETTING OFF BOMBS AND ENGAGING IN MASS KNIFE ATTACKS TO PROTEST HOW THEIR ETHNIC GROUP IS TREATED. That's some pretty extreme stuff. People tend not to do that and organize in such a fashion unless they feel like they are really getting shafted. They aren't raising a religious or political banner, but an ethnic one.
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I'll have to quote you again from an earlier post, steelwails, you plank.
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| When engaging in debate and expressing your opinion as you did, yes you have to be accurate and use qualifiers. |
So the knife attacks carried out by Uighurs, is it them all, some, a few or a tiny sliver of a minority?
Because I don't see Uighurs stabbing up people and setting bombs off every day - I see lots of Uighurs on a daily basis. |
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Qonny
Joined: 28 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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I taught a Uighur girl in a university tutor group back home. Man was she hot. She came in with her hair all flowing, *beep* hanging out of her top. Then one day she turned up in the heard scarf, which is different from the middle eastern ones, or the Malaysian/Indo ones. The story was, that her family had sent her brother over to keep an eye on her.
Anyway last I heard she was working at a casino in my home town, she listed me as a reference and they called me to talk about her.
She never tried to stab me, but we werent around each other too much. |
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