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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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That issue was decided by force, not argument.
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You are right. After decades of argument, the secessionists commited treason. The Unionists responded with the only possible answer left. Every elementary school kid says the following every day, "...one nation...indivisible". And every new citizen says it. If some later choose to break that pledge, it is treason.
I'm a fan of Daniel Webster's Second Reply to Hayne: "Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!" |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| You can now dismiss the Christian religion without even having to open up the Bible. Yes, Christians routinely base their lives on Old Testament teachings written a thousand years before Christ. Haven't you noticed them sacrificing lambs, ram, doves and such? |
Thanks for your permission, but it wasn't needed. I dismissed the bible years ago after I read it. I thought the plot was weak and it could use a good editor. Some good stories though. All in all, not a bad book but you have to skip the dull parts.
Yes, I have noticed they don't sacrifice lambs etc., which confuses me since they keep bringing up the 10 Commandments and the Old Testament rules about homosexuals. And with all the different varieties of Christianity, it's a little hard to keep track of all the rules and who believes which ones: dunk 'em vs. sprinkle 'em; married priests vs. unmarried priests; whether 'the power and the glory line belongs or not; whether Joseph Smith is a prophet or a heretic; birth control or rhythm method; predestination; salvation by grace or good works; justification by faith; transubstantiation...you have a lot more interest in that stuff than I do.
FYI, I'm an apathetic.
As the Bible tells us: "He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)
PS: Evidently, you are a literalist since I wasn't far off with "Spare the rod, spoil the child". So is beating a kid with a stick abuse or not? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Why do some Scots and Welsh want to split from the United Kingdom? Because they have a distinct history and culture, and some of them resent being ruled by the English. Why do you think Mexicans would be any different? It would be only natural that perhaps they would choose to join with their cultural kin in Mexico.
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The problem here is you're assuming that the vast majority of hispanics are from Mexico. What you're forgetting is the large number of hispanics from Central America and the Dominican Republic. For instance, a friend of mine teaches in a school that is about 50% hispanic. While yes, a majority of them are Mexican, there is a substantial minority from El Salvador and Guatamala. And this is in CA; go to the DC area, FL, and NY and there is even more diversity in the hispanic community.
Political analysts think this is a big reason why the hispanic voice has not been nearly as united as the african american voice in the past. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
[
I dismissed the bible years ago after I read it. I thought the plot was weak and it could use a good editor. Some good stories though. All in all, not a bad book but you have to skip the dull parts.
If you think a plot that includes the creation of man, the rebellion of man, the origins of sin and death and the redemption of man by the willing sacrifice of God's own son is weak, remind me not to read your movie or book reviews.
Yes, I have noticed they don't sacrifice lambs etc., which confuses me since they keep bringing up the 10 Commandments and the Old Testament rules about homosexuals.
I think the Ten Commandments are brought up a lot because they are more inclusive (Christians and Jews) and quite basic. Personally, I don't think they need to be displayed in school, but it might not be so bad if some basic ethics were taught in school. As for the topic of homosexuals, it is mentioned in both the New and Old Testaments.
And with all the different varieties of Christianity, it's a little hard to keep track of all the rules and who believes which ones: dunk 'em vs. sprinkle 'em; married priests vs. unmarried priests; whether 'the power and the glory line belongs or not; whether Joseph Smith is a prophet or a heretic; birth control or rhythm method; predestination; salvation by grace or good works; justification by faith; transubstantiation...you have a lot more interest in that stuff than I do.
Actually, I probably don't. One doesn't have to "keep track" of who believes what. I just believe the Scriptures. There are a lot of doctrines, teachings and theologies out there that simply cannot be found in Scripture. There are even whole other religions that try to include Jesus that are not Christian. People can belive whatever they want, but I don't have to keep track of what they believe to know what I believe.
As the Bible tells us: "He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)
PS: Evidently, you are a literalist since I wasn't far off with "Spare the rod, spoil the child". So is beating a kid with a stick abuse or not?
Ah yes, the original theme of this thread was biblical proverbs and child rearing in the 21st century, right? I don't know exactly what was considered a "rod" in the those times nor do I know the Hebrew word used in this passage. Also, newer translations use the word "punish" rather than "beat." My dad spanked with a ping-pong paddle when he thought it was deserved. I didn't consider it child abuse then, and I still don't. Would I consider an actual beating with an actual rod child abuse? Of course. I also consider divorce and polygamy immoral-both of which were allowed under Mosaic law. And while I think adultery is wrong, I don't believe it warrants the death penalty. If you find any Christians or Jews for that matter, who feel that it is okay to beat children with rods or who practice polygamy or stone adulterers, please let me know. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
Why do some Scots and Welsh want to split from the United Kingdom? Because they have a distinct history and culture, and some of them resent being ruled by the English. Why do you think Mexicans would be any different? It would be only natural that perhaps they would choose to join with their cultural kin in Mexico.
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The problem here is you're assuming that the vast majority of hispanics are from Mexico. What you're forgetting is the large number of hispanics from Central America and the Dominican Republic. For instance, a friend of mine teaches in a school that is about 50% hispanic. While yes, a majority of them are Mexican, there is a substantial minority from El Salvador and Guatamala. And this is in CA; go to the DC area, FL, and NY and there is even more diversity in the hispanic community.
Political analysts think this is a big reason why the hispanic voice has not been nearly as united as the african american voice in the past. |
Good point. I often overlook that.
But then again Mexico lost Texas to a flood of Anglo immigrants. Some of whom were Yankees.
At my last job in California I worked for a Cuban-American guy. It was F'ing Mexicans this, F'ing Mexicans that. He was from Florida. What do you expect? He thought Dan Marino was the greatest quarterback to walk the face of the Earth.  |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| If you find any Christians or Jews for that matter, who feel that it is okay to beat children with rods or who practice polygamy or stone adulterers, please let me know. |
You'll get the answer to that when Bobster produces evidence of Senior church leaders inciting violence and calling muslims dogs. Don't hold your breath. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:29 am Post subject: |
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I just wanted to come back to this thread to add something. People should be aware that a lot of Islamic extremism stinks of Western influence. A lot of the hatred espoused by the extreme ranks are taking their cue primarily not from the Koran, but from other sources.
This is a good series to read if you want some background on Islamic militancy.
Last edited by Kuros on Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| lot of the hatred espoused by the extreme ranks are taking their cue primarily not from the Koran, but from other sources. |
Which is why they justify their actions by quoting liberally from the Koran. They may copy the methodology and organisation of extremist Western political groups, and make alliances when it suits their needs, but to say that they are not inspired by the Koran is patent nonsense. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| but to say that they are not inspired by the Koran is patent nonsense. |
I agree that much of it is inspired by the Koran. But the issue here is can Islam be reformed. I think that it is possible, and at any rate the primary stumbling block will hardly be the Koran. I don't like picking and choosing passages from the Koran and taking them out of context to arrive at a pre-conceived notion: that Islam is at its roots 'violent,' 'intolerant,' or 'flawed.' I've seen enough clumsy quoting from Deuteronomy to discredit the Bible, one of the greatest books ever (I sharply disagree with Ya-Ta here, which is a rare occurance for me), to be wary of the attempts here to lay siege to the Koran. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:42 am Post subject: ... |
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Quote:
Again, you assume I assume something.
Why would you say this:
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if current immigration demographics continue, perhaps you should talk to Vicente Fox, since Hispanic immigration far outpaces that of Muslims.
If you didn't assume I was American? |
First of all, you already said you weren't American.
Secondly, by you own very slanted logic, why would you be calling the American media liberal?
But you go on to accuse me of hysterics while your ill-informed Nostradamus posts are pointing to the West Coast seceding from the Union because of all the Hispanics there.
And that is very comparable to your avalanche of posts about Muslims taking over Europe and putting women in Burkahs.
And before you do another "That's not what I said", what exectly were you warning the Dutch about? Aren't you worried about Muslim immigrants subjectin Europe to Sharia Law?
So, someone says these laws are largely based in local culture.
Your response? You go off about the Koran and how the problem is that it's the word of Allah.
A Muslim points out that he sees Jihad as a spiritual struggle.
You start quoting the Koran to prove your point.
People reiterate to you that Muslims interpret the Koran differently, that Jihad is not a pillar of Islam, and what do you do?
You move on to citing an Islamic scholar in Egypt "spewing hate". You IGNORE that the article you posted is by a Muslim in Pakistan criticizing him.
Which brings us back to you. After a few random posts, you launched into a crusade against Islam and even the American media, which you also make one-sided points about.
For the record, we have the following:
-Europe may be split by Muslims
Note: Holland and France will be overthrown
Turkey might introduce overthrowing everyone...
-America may be split by Hispanics
Note: California, Arizona, and New Mexico will be overthrown.
-the American Media is liberal because of all the "liberal" reporters who work for them*
*Aside from Fox
Now, you're accusing me of hysterics? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I just wanted to come back to this thread to add something. People should be aware that a lot of Islamic extremism stinks of Western influence. A lot of the hatred espoused by the extreme ranks are taking their cue primarily not from the Koran, but from other sources.
This is a good series to read if you want some background on Islamic militancy. |
Very well said |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| If you find any Christians or Jews for that matter, who feel that it is okay to beat children with rods or who practice polygamy or stone adulterers, please let me know. |
You'll get the answer to that when Bobster produces evidence of Senior church leaders inciting violence and calling muslims dogs. Don't hold your breath. |
That wasn't the deal. You were supposed to show that high-ranking and mainstream muslim leaders support international violent jihad and the killing of innocent civilians. Instead, you gave links to statements made regarding the struggle against Israel. Very much an apples-and-oranges thing, you see - as one of your links asserted, a case can be made that there no civilians in Israel due to their mandatory conscription and perpetual reservist system, and likewise, there has bever been a formal declaration of peace between Israel and her adversaries of the last conflist, and yet Israel holds on to territory acquired ... there's no excuse for the anti-semitism of a lot of muslims, but it is not the norm, not when the question of Israel and Palestine is removed from the picture.
And there is very little, if any, connection between the stuff you showed and the international jihadism of the extremists who are at work against the US, to say nothing of the 9/11 business.
This all seemed obvious enough to me when I first saw the "sources" you chose to "support" your notion that all of Islam can be covered under the relatively small blanket provided by the words terror and jihad. I thought you might be kidding around and still looking around for something that would really support your claims, but apparently this is all we get.
Oh, well. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| I remember asking you for specific names of "major" muslim leaders and specific instances of violent speech from them. |
Once again
'In his weekly sermon (April 2002) the Sheikh of Al-Azhar, Muhammad Sayyid Al-Tantawi, the most senior authority in the Sunni Muslim world, described the Jews as "the enemies of Allah, sons of pigs and apes."(1)'
Can you produce anything similar from senior Christian leaders? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| You were supposed to show that high-ranking and mainstream muslim leaders support international violent jihad and the killing of innocent civilians. |
Are Israelis living or travelling outside Israel innocent civilians, or are they fair game? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
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| If you find any Christians or Jews for that matter, who feel that it is okay to beat children with rods or who practice polygamy or stone adulterers, please let me know. |
You'll get the answer to that when Bobster produces evidence of Senior church leaders inciting violence and calling muslims dogs. Don't hold your breath. |
That wasn't the deal. You were supposed to show that high-ranking and mainstream muslim leaders support international violent jihad and the killing of innocent civilians. Instead, you gave links to statements made regarding the struggle against Israel. Very much an apples-and-oranges thing, you see - as one of your links asserted, a case can be made that there no civilians in Israel due to their mandatory conscription and perpetual reservist system, and likewise, there has bever been a formal declaration of peace between Israel and her adversaries of the last conflist, and yet Israel holds on to territory acquired ... there's no excuse for the anti-semitism of a lot of muslims, but it is not the norm, not when the question of Israel and Palestine is removed from the picture.
And there is very little, if any, connection between the stuff you showed and the international jihadism of the extremists who are at work against the US, to say nothing of the 9/11 business.
This all seemed obvious enough to me when I first saw the "sources" you chose to "support" your notion that all of Islam can be covered under the relatively small blanket provided by the words terror and jihad. I thought you might be kidding around and still looking around for something that would really support your claims, but apparently this is all we get.
Oh, well. |
(italics are mine)
Would this include children and seniors? |
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