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George W. Bush...
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject:

mithridates wrote:

uh...yes? That's the scariest question I've ever seen here. And no text decoration!

Technical difficulties, baby.

Actually, I did not run any searches, I didn't even cut and paste anything, so that material seems to have come from nowhere.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

All I can do is point out these things and hope that the Americans who voted for Bush might actually see a point of view outside their little box.

Not likely to happen, and for a variety of reasons. The style of your commentary, however, could tend to alienate some of us who never voted for Bush and disagree with him on all issues, but we don't hate our own country the way some do...

laogaiguk wrote:

A lot of non-Americans still wonder why he hasn't been impeached yet?

W. Bush has not committed an impeachable offense.

A lot of non-Americans come from countries with different traditions and politics. We are still a country of laws, however, and Constitutional standards, sooner or later, have usually prevailed.

W. Bush has not violated the Constitution or broken any other law.

In the U.S., you can't impeach a president just because he's unpopular and controversial, and foreign opinion of him has no bearing on the issue either.

Wait, is a bj against the law in America? If not, what about Clinton???

Quote:

laogaiguk wrote:

Kill hundreds of thousand of innocent lives and put the men and women of your country in constant risk doesn't, but a blwjb will get the ball rolling on impeachement.

First, you're overstating again. You have a tendency to go beyond the evidence. I last heard, only two or three days ago, that there are approx. 30 to 35 thousand dead Iraqis as a result of the war and occupation, and there are approximately 3 to 5 thousand dead Americans.

It may be conservative to go ahead and say the death toll is approx. 50 thousand overall, because it might be. But this is not even 100 thousand, let alone "hundreds of thousands of innocent lives."

You're understating now. If you only want to actually count bodies, fine. But the 30 to 35 thousand is only the reported deaths. The estimates (of parties outside the Bush administrations payroll) show more likely over 100000.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/casualties.html

Quote:

Also, does your use of "innocent" mean you consider the taliban and the former Iraqi regime and armed forces "innocent"?

Come on, this is really going too far. Who the heck thinks the taliban and Iraqi regime were innocent? I am sure the terrorists don't even think that.

Quote:

On the bj issue, I felt Clinton was totally maligned by a hostile and intolerant right from day one, just as W. Bush has been totally maligned by a hostile and intolerant left from day one.

When does this bs ever end?

Maybe I misread, are you saying Bush has been maligned and he is a good president?

Quote:

laogaiguk wrote:

Just out of curiousity, you don't think that America should be held in a positive light at the moment, do you?

"America"? Again this is way too broad.

What would you like me to say? How shall I refer to your country then? Germany invaded Poland. Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. England colonized a good portion of the world. We use country names in our language for a reason. This is not too broad (I have sometimes been to general, but this time I am not). BTW, I get your point. I just think your point is a good way to hide from responsibility, that's just my opinion ofcourse.

Quote:

I think there is much about "America" at the moment that we can be proud of.

On the other hand, I disagree with nearly everything the W. Bush Administration stands for. Moreover, historically, U.S. foreign policy has been intertwined in the making of world history, sometimes and in some places disproportionately so, and this has sometimes been for the better, sometimes of little effect, and sometimes for the worse. When it has been for the worse, this has involved the U.S. in events we are not proud of. It has made us at least partly -- but never wholly -- responsible for some of the bad turns history has taken, in some places and in some times.

And your comment on Romans and Rome fails to account for authors like Gore Vidal, who, in Washington, D.C., spoke on the theme that nothing lasts forever...and this was several decades ago.

Finally, in my opinion, W. Bush and any other president or indeed any other govt in the world, is highly overrated as to its capabilities and power. It took scholars several decades, for example, to move beyond Nazi propaganda and start to appreciate that it wasn't such a powerful omnipresent dictatorship after all, and that, according to one historian, it was even rife with factionalism and internal dissent and protest, and would probably have collapsed before 1950, even if Hitler had been victorious...

I don't understand what this has to do with the discussion. Ofcourse there is dissent in America. Close to 50% percent of the people didn't vote for bush. But whether there was dissent or not in the Nazi regime, they still had a major impact on the world and on millions of lives. Other empires that had major impacts on the world would be Japan, Rome, and ofcourse Russia. There are many more. That was my point from the beginning about America.
And "one" historian thinks so. That really isn't very credible.
What things are you proud of in America now (internally or internationally)?

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject:

Things to be proud of in America: 1. The simpsons and a few other genius entertainment programs 2. Jazz music 3. No better place to be an entrepeneur 4. Immigrants are better integrated than anywhere else besides perhaps Canada and Australia 5. Our universities 6. Our innovation that's off the top of my head. #5 and #6 are in danger of slipping, but for now, still impressive compared to the rest of the world.

canuckistan
Mod Team

Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject:

Your average American is pretty reasonable and friendly. I really starting to think this country's admin somehow got hijacked by the loopy fringe.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject:

canuckistan wrote:

Your average American is pretty reasonable and friendly.
I really starting to think this country's admin somehow got hijacked by the loopy fringe.

I'm just waiting for 2008 when I hope it goes back to normal, or maybe even better.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject:

Laogaiguk: to save space, I'll just reply to your last issues, without citing all of the previous quotes.

laogaiguk wrote:

Wait, is a bj against the law in America? If not, what about Clinton???

Like I said, the right was out to get Clinton from day one. They tried with Whitewater, a nonsense issue that no one really understood. Then it cascaded into a long-running special prosecutor, complete with conspiracy theories involving suicide. Then they stubmled onto Monica, and then Clinton lied about it, under oath. And they prosecuted him for lying under oath, not for Monica per se.

I may be off on some of these facts but not the gist of the thing...I'm just improvising from my own recollection here.

In any case, it was an absurdity from start to finish. You ask about my politics, at least implicitly: I voted for Clinton twice, and still admire many things about him. His politics are pretty much my politics, except for a few minor trivialities. Except for Carter, I'd call him the best president of my lifetime.

laogaiguk wrote:

I'm not understating. I'm paraphrasing and repeating an official estimate CNN reported less than two days ago.

In any case, let's make a very liberal interpretation and call it 100,000 deaths overall.

Still not plural, dude. Where did you get your data when you said "hundreds of thousands of innocent lives"?

laogaiguk wrote:

Maybe I misread, are you saying Bush has been maligned and he is a good president?

Maybe you misread me? Try not putting too many words in my mouth here. Where have I said or suggested anything like this -- "W. Bush is a good president" -- anywhere on this board?

He is a bad president and he has been maligned by those who make him much worse than he actually is.

laogaiguk wrote:

What would you like me to say?

I'd like you to be specific.

"Germany" did not start WWI, for example. It was the Imperial General Staff.

If you're going to hurl allegations and accusations, you need to be very specific as to the "who" and the "what."

laogaiguk wrote:

I don't understand what this has to do with the discussion...That really isn't very credible.

You can start by realizing or admitting that you are wearing anti-American, or as you wish, "anti-America" blinders.

My point is that, in this ongoing apparently futile attempt to calm down the hyterical anti-Bush mob on this board, the powers of the presidency and the U.S. govt in general have been grossly overstated.

W. Bush didn't sign the Kyoto accords (and Congress would not likely have ratified it either, by the way, for the same political reasons he refused to sign it). Therefore, suddenly, the environment is now in danger. And it's all W. Bush's fault.

Then Katrina. Now you're alleging "hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths" in Iraq, and, moreover, that the U.S. govt has harmed peoples' daily lives all over the world.

This hyperbole is absurd.

He is a bad president. He is an increasingly unpopular president. He should never have been president. There isn't a single thing about his administration that I agree with. He still is not antichrist, however. And he is not the ultimate cause of all that is wrong in the world, at least in human affairs. All of us are, including the holier-than-thou, preachy Canada and Canadians.

Continually castigating W. Bush as the scapegoat for all that is not right in the universe won't change this one iota.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject:

First,
I have never once used Canada as an example because it has a lot of problems too. Wait, I did once.

Quote:

Now it is sure as heck not just Americans who whine(I think Canadians might have a one up on Americans on that point)

I don't like people who praise their country by putting down another and I don't do that (I do know some Canadians do, but we are not talking about them). Please stay on topic.
Second, you said Bush has been totally maligned.
maligned: To make evil, harmful, and often untrue statements about; speak evil of.
So, if the right is saying Bush is bad and you say he is being maligned, then you must think he isn't what they are saying, no? That is how I took it as it was implied.
Third when I mentioned Poland, I was talking about WWII. Sorry, I should have clarified that more (that isn't a quip either). Germany invaded Poland.
Fourth, I believe you are wearing the "America isn't really all that bad" blinders. Just the fact that you took a CNN report without checking it out a bit more (mine was from the CBC, trust me, I checked it out on other sites too, the CBC is just as bad as American media) says a bit.
Finally,
where did "Katrina" come from? or Kyoto? or the whole Canadian bit? I again never mentioned those. Hell, if you read Canadian news at all (though I DO understand there is no need to for an American so I am not making a quip again) you'll see the media is going on about just how hypocritical Canada itself has been on the Kyoto protocol. You seem to have some Canadian blinders yourself.

Quote:

Continually castigating W. Bush as the scapegoat for all that is not right in the universe won't change this one iota.

I am not blaming the US for everything in the universe (overstatement???). Just the things it has actually has done.[/quote]

You are understating a good portion of what you say which is much, much more dangerous than people overstating it. I'd rather say America is evil incarnate and have people look into those problems and show they are baseless than people saying America isn't that bad and just ignoring things.

cubanlord

Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

canuckistan wrote:

Your average American is pretty reasonable and friendly.
I really starting to think this country's admin somehow got hijacked by the loopy fringe.

I'm just waiting for 2008 when I hope it goes back to normal, or maybe even better.

Majo! (sorry...reformated my hard disk and now I don't have the Korean swap feature avail.). Laughing

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:01 am Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

I'd rather say America is evil incarnate and have people look into those problems and show they are baseless than people saying America isn't that bad and just ignoring things.

I'd rather you just stick to the facts rather than shooting so far off the mark to begin with.

Edit: And this isn't an either/or choice. The U.S. is both good and bad. You create a false dilemma. I know of no one who says that U.S. is purely good. Yet there are many, like you, who would say that it is purely bad. That's the issue.

How is it possible that so many people can see the good and the bad in Anakin Skywalker but not in the U.S. government?

Last edited by Gopher on Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:03 am; edited 2 times in total

Bee Positive

Joined: 27 Oct 2005

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: Re: George W. Bush...

cubanlord wrote:

First off, I am an American, love my country, and if need be, would defend it if I had to.

However, in leu of recent readings, I must say that I cannot wait until the next election. In his first running for the Presidency, I was all for him. I am a republican (in that I feel WE, the people, should have control of our money, control over what doctor's we go to, etc.), but Bush has really given The States a bad rap. (especially, recently, with the KYOTO treaty).

Although a republican and a capitalist, I am ashamed of what he has done in the past few years. I am appauled that he would considered the "bottom dollar" over the environment; dumbfounded as to how I couldn't see this before. My only hope is that the next person in office well make every God giving effort to correct the atrocities Bush has put forth.

Opinions, remarks?

There are no longer any elections in America.

John Kerry won by a landslide. Didn't you follow the results?

The exit polls all had him winning BY A LANDSLIDE, with mountains of statistics in favor of their results.

Quite simply, people who had JUST VOTED, all across the country, were asked HOW they had voted. They answered that they had voted for John Kerry in such overwhelming numbers that the election was essentially all wrapped up before the official counting ever started.

Kerry won.

Until the funny business went into play.

Funny how computer voting terminals leave no paper trail.

Funny how "irregularities" turned up in key places, notably in Ohio.

America is a fraud. It's my country, and I hate to have to say so, but I acknowledge a higher loyalty without, in so doing, disacknowledging my country. Namely, I acknowledge THE TRUTH.

Come 2008, I'd expect more of the same, simply by extrapolating from the present and near past. Unless, that is, Bush flubs up so catastrophically and irreversably that his monied-elite handlers deem it in their own best interests to bring forth a new manager, in which case . . . expect a new manager.

None of this is new. Eugene Victor Debs, a popular presidential candidate in his time, was stuck in jail for publicly opposing American entrance into WWI. So much for free speech. So much for democracy.

Kennedy, b astard that he was in so many ways, attempted to run the country as though he were . . . president. And paid the price. We've been agenda-run from shadowy places ever since then, and it's all so painfully obvious, really, that I just feel sorry for those who can't or won't or don't want to see it.

All so awful, so dreadful, so sickening. A disaster for the whole world, but a heartache of a very special sort if you happen to in fact BE American, as I am.

BEE POSITIVE

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:07 pm Post subject:

Bee Positive: how much is Igotthisguitar paying you to write this stuff?

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject:

Bee Positive wrote:

None of this is new. Eugene Victor Debs, a popular presidential candidate in his time, was stuck in jail for publicly opposing American entrance into WWI. So much for free speech. So much for democracy.

By your definition, Ross Perot was popular.

I have something to say. I like Ya-Ta Boy and Gopher usually, but why they feed these somewhat-anti-American almost-trolls I have no idea about.

Just walk away...anybody who wants to blame the problems in the world solely on American policy deserves to be left alone in the mirror to confirm themselves their own beliefs.

cubanlord

Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: George W. Bush...

Bee Positive wrote:

cubanlord wrote:

See, now you are generalizing that America, as a whole, is a fraud. I don't agree with this. The current administration has ties; this is true. However, you are insinuating that it has been, is, and will be a fraud (with a statement like that). I still love my country; just not the one that runs it, that's all.

hahahahaha, quoting someone that has said this before...no one could have put it in more lamen (sp?) terms: "We have a job here in Korea thanks to the US". It isn't because of Europe, Canada, Australia, and other countries that English is so popular in this country. So hey, America has to be good for something right?!?!?! Remember...BEE POSITIVE...HEHEHE Laughing

Last edited by cubanlord on Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

cubanlord

Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: George W. Bush...

Bee Positive wrote:

John Kerry won by a landslide. Didn't you follow the results?

The exit polls all had him winning BY A LANDSLIDE, with mountains of statistics in favor of their results.

Quite simply, people who had JUST VOTED, all across the country, were asked HOW they had voted. They answered that they had voted for John Kerry in such overwhelming numbers that the election was essentially all wrapped up before the official counting ever started.

Kerry won.

I am aware that Kerry did win by "majority vote". However, The Presidency is not won by majority vote, it is won by electoral vote. Unfortuately, if you want to be technical, Kerry won in an election system that doesn't exist.

I wish it was that simple that the person wins by majority vote. Unfortunatley it isn't. Crying or Very sad

gdimension

Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Location: Jeju

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: George W. Bush...

cubanlord wrote:

Bee Positive wrote:

Actually Kerry lost the popular vote by a little over 3,000,000.

I think you mean Gore, who won the popular vote by slightly over 500,000, but lost the election.

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