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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: about those 47 million uninsured |
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Interesting article about US health care.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/02/business/wbcolumn03.php
"Some 47 million Americans do not have health insurance.
This number from the Census Bureau is often cited as evidence that the health system is failing for many families. Yet by masking tremendous heterogeneity in personal circumstances, the figure exaggerates the magnitude of the problem.
To start with, the 47 million includes about 10 million residents who are not U.S. citizens. Many are illegal immigrants. Even with national health insurance, they would probably not be covered.
The number also fails to take full account of Medicaid, the government's health program for the poor. For instance, it includes millions of the poor who are eligible for Medicaid but have not yet applied. These individuals, who are healthier, on average, than those who are enrolled, could apply if they ever needed significant medical care. They are uninsured in name only.
The 47 million also includes many who could buy insurance but have not done so. The census reports that 18 million of the uninsured have an annual income of more than $50,000, which puts them in the top half of the income distribution. About a quarter of the uninsured have been offered employer-provided insurance but declined coverage." |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I get it, so if you are an American without healthcare, you are either too dumb, too lazy or an immigrant.  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| I get it... |
No, I do not believe you do get it.
We can and should reform the American healthcare system. But, this notwithstanding, it was never as twisted and evil as you and people like Michael Moore have made it out to be.
By the way, speaking of sarcasm and eyerolls, what is Ron Paul's position on national healthcare systems like Medicaid...? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| We can and should reform the American healthcare system. |
Yes.
| Gopher wrote: |
| what is Ron Paul's position on national healthcare systems |
He's trying to pass the National Healthcare Act:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul407.html |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link.
Do you truly understand what this means, Tiger Beer?
| Ron Paul wrote: |
| Returning control over health care to the individual is the key to true health care reform. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Thanks for the link.
Do you truly understand what this means, Tiger Beer?
| Ron Paul wrote: |
| Returning control over health care to the individual is the key to true health care reform. |
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Yes.
Do you truley ruley truley ruley understandee tooey, Gopher? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: |
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As I said, above, I do not believe you get it. And your additional posts here have confirmed this beyond reasonable doubt. You and the other Ron-Paul cheerleaders.
Your decrying America's twisted and evil healthcare system. Your denoucing "fifty million uninsured Americans." Your support for Ron Paul's healthcare plans. These things do not reconcile. Yet you have a vote in the process.
Sometimes I fear for the Republic. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
As I said, above, I do not believe you get it. And your additional posts here have confirmed this beyond reasonable doubt. You and the other Ron-Paul cheerleaders.
Sometimes I fear for the Republic. |
No, you don't get it.
First, you thought the healthcare system was great and everyone was just complaining (on that other thread). Now you are posting it needs reform (earlier on this thread, and later on in that other same thread).
Now you are making Ron Paul quotes without any real point.
Maybe you can solidify your position and actually make a point, and this entire conversation can go a lot more smoothly from there. Or is your point the system is great but needs reform so you don't need to make any point whatsoever.
A nice safe bet, maybe you should stick with that strategy, flip-flopper. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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In 1950, Americans spent about 5 percent of their income on health care. Today the share is about 16 percent.
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This is the significant statistic, imo. I don't know what the solution is; I'll leave that to experts who've studied the problem and the alternatives. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| you thought the healthcare system was great... |
No. Read it again. This nonsense is little more than your strawmanning me into something your simplistic mind might better apprehend.
Whatever it is, it never was, nor is now, my position.
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| Now you are making Ron Paul quotes without any real point. |
I now find you too dense to exchange views with, like another poster I will not name. I believe you, incidentally, that you sincerely find my above Ron-Paul citation (from the document you linked) as having "no real point" in this discussion.
Very well. Here is its significance, again: you claim to want healthcare reform so that all Americans (especially those nonprofessionals who cannot find meaningful employment with benefits like you) might enjoy healthcare coverage.
But you also support Ron Paul who, given the opportunity, would go backwards on this issue -- that is, he would eliminate programs like Medicaid and target the others he references in the statement you posted, basically taking an ax to govt and returning most taxes to taxpaying Americans to take care of themselves.
And I cannot reconcile these two positions. Do you have any concept how many Americans Ron Paul's "reform" would exclude? More would live outside the system than do now; indeed, the system itself would dramatically shrink -- probably to pre-New Deal proportions. Indeed, every time Ron Paul speaks I imagine LBJ rolls over in his grave and shouts four-letter words.
In any case, you are thererfore another crazy one. Regards social policy and welfare, Ron Paul goes far to the right of even Reagan and Thatcher. He goes to the right, for that matter, of the Republican Congress's "Contract with America" in 1994. And you hail him as a great reformer because you like what he has to say about foreign affairs not holding to eighteenth-century norms? Absurd.
Is there a method to your madness?
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:23 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
In 1950, Americans spent about 5 percent of their income on health care. Today the share is about 16 percent.
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This is the significant statistic, imo. I don't know what the solution is; I'll leave that to experts who've studied the problem and the alternatives. |
That is what the problem is; soaring cost of health care. Even if we had the not for profit cover all insurance program that people like Dennis Kucinich dream about; it would not solve the problem of cost.
Two reasons that I can think of for the rising costs of health care are an ageing population and a higher percentage of Americans being overwhieght- which leads to diabities, hypertension, other heart problems as well as some cancers.
the good news is that Americans are using less tabacco. Also while 1 in 4 Americans will find out they have cancer in the next year, the rates of cancer and cancer survival rates have been declining for the past seven years or so.
Really, one of the solutions is to try and get everyone to live a healthier life style; eating a plant based diet, losing those unwanted pounds and if more people quit using tabacco. Should those things happen, you would start seeing a relative decline in health care for everyone. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Should those things happen, you would start seeing a relative decline in health care for everyone. |
While I don't object to the list of things you mentioned, I think the real problem is the cost of having a nurse bring you two aspirins when you are flat in your back in the hospital. |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
In 1950, Americans spent about 5 percent of their income on health care. Today the share is about 16 percent.
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This is the significant statistic, imo. I don't know what the solution is; I'll leave that to experts who've studied the problem and the alternatives. |
That is what the problem is; soaring cost of health care. Even if we had the not for profit cover all insurance program that people like Dennis Kucinich dream about; it would not solve the problem of cost.
Two reasons that I can think of for the rising costs of health care are an ageing population and a higher percentage of Americans being overwhieght- which leads to diabities, hypertension, other heart problems as well as some cancers.
the good news is that Americans are using less tabacco. Also while 1 in 4 Americans will find out they have cancer in the next year, the rates of cancer and cancer survival rates have been declining for the past seven years or so.
Really, one of the solutions is to try and get everyone to live a healthier life style; eating a plant based diet, losing those unwanted pounds and if more people quit using tabacco. Should those things happen, you would start seeing a relative decline in health care for everyone. |
The New England Journal of Medicine disagrees with the tobacco part:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/337/15/1052
"If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."
All the smokers and overeaters dying early probably saves health care money. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Americans are justifiably concerned over the government�s escalating intervention into their freedom to choose what they eat and how they take care of their health.
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA), in order to comply with standards dictated by supra-national organizations such as the UN�s World Food Code (CODEX), NAFTA, and CAFTA, has been assuming greater control over nutrients, vitamins and natural health care providers to restrict your right to choose the manner in which you manage your health and nutritional needs.
I have been the national leader in preserving Health Freedom.
I have introduced the Health Freedom Protection Act, HR 2117, to ensure Americans can receive truthful health information about supplements and natural remedies.
I support the Access to Medical Treatment Act, H.R. 2717, which expands the ability of Americans to use alternative medicine and new treatments.
I oppose legislation that increases the FDA�s legal powers. FDA has consistently failed to protect the public from dangerous drugs, genetically modified foods, dangerous pesticides and other chemicals in the food supply. Meanwhile they waste public funds attacking safe, healthy foods and dietary supplements
I also opposed the Homeland Security Bill, H.R. 5005, which, in section 304, authorizes the forced vaccination of American citizens against small pox. The government should never have the power to require immunizations or vaccinations. |
exactly what is Ron Pauls plan? |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| you thought the healthcare system was great... |
No. Read it again. This nonsense is little more than your strawmanning me into something your simplistic mind might better apprehend.
Whatever it is, it never was, nor is now, my position. |
That's because you have no position. You use to think healthcare was great, and then suddenly you put exclaimers in your position, saying 'it needs reform'.
Well, which one is it? Do you have any kind of position whatsoever with heathcare?
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Regarding my position. The system is broken. Democrats and Republicans just want to tweak the insurance system. Sure, I think a universal healthcare wouldn't be bad if it modeled after UK or even Canada, I don't really care. I'm not against that, but a Republican or a Democrat this election has no intention of that happening whatsoever.
Most Democrats and Republicans want to keep the insurance industries. The only plan the Dems have is to offer credits to kids or immigrants. No real plan to cover everyone. They can't cover everyone anyways because the insurance system is so corrupt and messed up as it is, and they all just want to work within that system.
Ron Paul wants to get rid of the entire insurance industry altogether, no more government subsidiaries to all of those insurance companies. Let it all dry up and be done with it. Prices go back down to normal. I see no problem with that. Once you completely dismantle something, someone else later can put in something that is well-thought out and efficient. Fine by me. |
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