Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ddeubel]

I just read a previous forum about a person posting about stray dogs and cats.....the moderators took issue. I"m not sure if the person was banned or not but the threads were locked.

This to me raises the question of "What is a forum"? It is an especially important topic these days. Social networking in all aspects of our lives, from recipes to rock n roll is becoming a common feature of the social landscape. No longer do people just "read" but they participate and produce in a community.

Several people on the above forum stated that "it is a private forum and Dave can do whatever the hell he wants". I take issue with that. It is a "public" forum and we who contribute here, have ownership. Our content is the value of this forum and a community (which a forum is) is only a community in so far there is a sense of belonging (ownership). So I disagree with that kind of statement.

Further, I see it as an issue of power. The mods just get power hungry and don't try to deal with "people" by PM or asking. It is just my way or the highway. Draconian and not befitting any 21st century notion of Web 2.0 and participatory subculture.

I have contributed on this forum for year, many years. Especially on the International board. I posted honestly on a number of country forums about a new page of karaoke songs for teachers. Without an email, PM, my account was closed and I still can't log in. I guess they consider helping teachers, for free, spam?

I think anyone can see the difference between useless spamming and posting which genuinely are of human interest/teacher interest and of necessity should be seen on several threads.

The mods have no idea what a forum is, to put it bluntly.

Sure we didn't start the fire, but we sure as hell keep it burning.....

DD

[SuperFly]

I agree with this post. You're a very intelligent and perceptive young man.

[Scotticus]

[Captain Corea]

Or, could it be that the post about stray dogs and cats was SPAM, and that the post had already been ongoing in the Off-Topic forum?

Usually, I don't understand the Mods here, but that move had explanation/reason.

[twg]

Oh, fucking hell...

IT WAS SPAM

[thegadfly]

ddeubel,

There is the medium, and there is the message. While Dave does not own the message contained by the medium, he does indeed own the medium -- or at least, he is the one that pays for its use, by paying for bandwidth/storage/electricity to keep the server on, etc. This IS a private forum, in that the medium is funded by a private entity -- whether or not that entity receives those funds from other sources (e.g., advertisement), it is still private. As such, he, or those chosen to act on his behalf, can do pretty much whatever they want within a private venue.

I get together to play frisbee in the park with some friends. We go all the time. We use the park for our activities. We say and do some fun things, we make a mess and clean it up, we invite others or drive them away, but no matter what we do there, WE do not suddenly OWN the park. We do not own the forum. If you want to start a forum and hand ownership of said forum over to the community, more power to you. Get a server, design a web page, post whatever you want, and I will gladly sign up to be a part of it -- you often post helpful, insightful threads.

You also come across as "holier than thou," and a bit of an idealist shielded from the realities and hardships of everyday teaching life. In your new forum, I would be free to call you any kind or unkind names I chose to use, fling any epithets or excrement I cared to fling, and you would sit and read it, thinking, "This belongs to the community, I have no right to change it." You would let your useful threads get cluttered by spam, folks selling little blue pills that will make you bigger, stronger, longer, and slower to finish, because to lock anyone out would be a disservice to the community. You would never draw a line in the sand saying, "this far and no farther," because you recognize that not everyone will see that line as fair -- that some will think it an abuse of power, and so you would take the moral stance and allow whatever crap might float to the top of the thread to take its rightful place there.

...or not?

[bassexpander]

I was under the impression that this forum was actually bought/run/paid-for by someone else, and that it exists in an entirely different location than the rest of Dave's board (job ads, etc.)?

His name is still on it as part of the deal.

Is this incorrect?

[ddeubel]

Gadfly,

My point is not being "holy than thou", it is about being reasonable. A PM and dealing with people professionally is encumbent upon all "social" organizations. If members post and contribute, they do "own" something legally. And it is to those with power to act accordingly. This is a legal principle as well as just a social one.

Same goes with a store - because the person owns it, he can't just rip you off or NOT serve you. There are standards in place by which the "public" is protected. Social forums fall into that public category.

Thus, your analogy of the park is wrong. Let me explain. The park is NOT a place of public discourse like a newspaper, the village square or even a mall. Or a social network, especially. We do not waive any or all rights when joining up to a group like this or eating at McDonald's for that matter. It is public and you wrongly wrongly wrongly state that the mods/Dave can just do anything they damn well want. If I order a burger at Mcdonalds (or post here), I can talk as long as I want and buy whatever I want so long as I do so without hate/malice. The owner can't just throw me out, even if I talk about how the burgers at Burger King are so much better...

Our western legal system, rightly so, has certain standards protecting public speech. Public discourse is a legally protected right in certain forums/areas. This would apply on even a messageboard. A messageboard is not one's personal home or even office. It is where the public gathers and if one is to operate a business in that realm, they have to provide necessary standards of inclusion. Biased and heavy handed banning is NOT of that order.

Social networks are to be that - social. I realize there should be limitations on freedoms, as you rightly pointed out - but only when done judiciously and through a process of informing those affected etc.....Otherwise, the board is just a "private" fiefdom.

Reflecting upon the dozens of forums I've posted on and witnessed, those that work best are those who have leaders who set the tone....the rest will follow that lead. This is civility. I do think that Dave's hasn't at all set that tone -- that is why it is prone to the "stick" and banning etc.....

DD

PS. Several publications have written reviews of my forum and noted its "civility"....you are free to write whatever you want so long as it isn't hateful. That's the standard of our members who "own' the site. PMs and discourse is the way of "leading' and not just hitting a delete button. There is the medium which is the "massage" - so said the original McCluhan.

[ddeubel]

I also forgot to mention this great forum/online discussion about the growing role of social networking in education and beyond. Lots of great ideas... You will have to get up pretty early to participate in the online discussions though

http://scope.lidc.sfu.ca/mod/forum/view.php?id=668

DD

[thegadfly]

You can't get thrown out of McDonald's for staying too long or talking loudly about how Burger King is better? What fantasy world do YOU live in? In the US, you CAN get thrown out of McDonald's for staying too long -- I believe the term is "loitering." Talking too loud? "Public disturbance/disturbing the peace." Heck, you are not even allowed to wear certain articles of clothing at the mall anymore -- blue hoodie? Dun think so -- gang signs.

A store can't rip you off? You mean not give you the goods or services you paid for? Yeah, I agree -- but they have the freedom to set prices. Unfortunately, "price gouging" is illegal, but THAT is an infringement upon the right of the individual for the better/smoother operation of a community, which I think you are supporting...which is why posts get locked/deleted. The rights of the individual are being infringed upon for the better/smoother operation of the community.

Can Burger King go into McDonald's and post advertisements? Can a guy in a Burger King outfit stand in Wendy's and hand out directions to the nearest BK? Nope -- nor can folks just come in and post links to their own websites -- which is what I think has you upset. You linked to your own websites, those threads were deleted, and you are upset.

People CAN post links to their own websites -- I think those people are called "advertisers" and they have to do this "pay a fee" thing that might set them apart from those of us who use the site for free....

You keep saying that this is a public forum -- it is NOT public. It is private -- it may not be owned by Dave himself (I got that bit wrong -- just went by the name, which is kind of foolish), but it is owned by a person or company that uses it to earn money. The free forums bring in web traffic, which leads to higher revenue -- just like a car lot giving away free hot dogs leads to (in theory) more sales. However, you are not free to come to the lot and stock up on hot dogs -- they probably limit it to one to a customer or so. Nor would they be infringing on your freedom to NOT let you take as many hot dogs as you want.

A newspaper is NOT a place of public discourse. It is a privately owned, and most clearly demonstrate the biases and prejudices of their owners, with articles aimed at their target demographic.

The line you draw in the sand for your own forum is "as long as it is not hateful." I think that is a decent standard -- but you should not assume that others are going to follow your standards on their own forums, just as I won't argue that you SHOULD allow hateful postings on your own forum -- because, you know, your forum is YOURS, not mine, even if I AM a poster there....

[thegadfly]

Oh, and I would like to point out that there is a difference between what people SHOULD do and what they are legally entitled to do. Maybe some posts that were locked/deleted should not have been locked/deleted. That is different from saying that the mods on this site do not have the right to lock/delete those threads. Different animals entirely. I might even agree that perhaps, some of those threads should not have been locked/deleted...but it is certainly within the rights of the mods to do so.

[thegadfly]

Please excuse multiple, short posts -- between classes....

ddeubal,

I was not saying that in this thread you were being "holier than thou." I was saying that in the course of reading many of your posts, in many threads, the majority of which I find helpful/useful/reasonable, I find that you sometimes take a "holier than thou" tone, or perhaps patronizing or condescending, or whichever term you might prefer for talking down to someone. I've called you on it once or twice, others have done so as well, and you usually seem genuinely surprised that you come across that way. Fine and good.

You keep saying that this forum is public property -- it is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership

versus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_property

Unless you are claiming that somehow this forum was given as a gift to an undisclosed number of individuals, or donated somehow, it is private property. In fact, it can be argued that anything we post on here becomes someone else's property.

[ddeubel]

gadfly,

You clearly have "libertarian" leanings and I won't go into the "battle of Rand " with you.... Clearly we have differences but I will state that I never said this forum was "public property" merely "public" meaning of the public realm -- that in itself has special obligations and conventions. It is public because anyone can view this information. A private forum would have a closed door. This has been legally stated and is the case in law.

But I will address this "characterization".

1. I am somehow aloof from the normal teaching grind .
-- sorry, I teach more hours and a larger variety of students than you could ever imagine. I've spent considerable time as a "grunt" , Grade 4, grad 7/8, private ESL teaching, teaching evenings etc.... Your characterization is flatly wrong.

2. About your comments about my posts being "holier than thou". I've addressed these on the CC forum when I used to post there. This is simply my VOICE. How I write. It is not "who I am" and you simply seem to confuse the two. I think this is common but I would ask that you don't try to "label" a person who posts here.........that is impossible to do and one of the nice things but shortcomings of Dave's , the ability to have a VOICE and persona. My writing persona here, is a completely different animal to who I am in real life. I recognize that difference and use it....

Social networks such as Dave's suffer because they don't provide "ownership" to their members. Not any legal ownership, I mean a sense of ownership that would curb behaviour. Dave's offers no identity, no content, no personalization features (music, video, photos etc...). It is a blank page. That in part is why it has so many of the problems providing community, civil community.

[thegadfly]

ddeubal,

1. More than I could imagine? Doubt it -- pretty active imagination here. If you want to compare teaching experiences, I will gladly go place for place, year for year, type/grade/situation for type/grade/situation, and the person coming up short buys the beer/coffee (I prefer Guiness and Caramel Latte, respectively).

2. You ARE your voice, here. The "me" that stands in front of a classroom full of gang kids in the US is not the same "me" that stands in front of an honors class in Gangnam, nor are either of those the same "me" that takes my girlfriend to a movie on a Saturday night. We have many roles to play, hats to wear, and personas (personae?) to put forward. People know us by what they perceive of us -- I know you by what I have perceived of you. If you think that it is not a good representation of the true you, then perhaps you should be more aware of what you are putting forward.

I thought you had to register in order to post -- is that wrong? If you have to register, you are knocking on a closed door, asking to be admitted to the private forum. There IS a closed door....

[ddeubel]