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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: The Euro-American religious divide |
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http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=8712812
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ST. ANDREWS, Scotland: The cathedral here, on which work began in the 12th century, was once the largest in Scotland, until a mob of reformers bent on eradicating such lavish manifestations of "Popery" ransacked the place in 1559, leaving gulls to swoop through the surviving fa�ade.
Europe's cathedrals are indeed "so inspired, so grand, so empty," as Mitt Romney, a Mormon, put it last week in charting his vision of a faith-based presidency. Some do not survive at all. The Continent has paid a heavy price in blood for religious fervor and decided some time ago, as a French king once put it, that "Paris is well worth a Mass."
Romney, a Republican candidate for the presidency and former Massachusetts governor, was dismissive of European societies "too busy or too 'enlightened' to venture inside and kneel in prayer." In so doing, he pointed to what has become the principal trans-Atlantic cultural divide.
Europeans still take their Enlightenment seriously enough not to put it in quote marks. They have long found one of its most inspiring reflections in the first 16 words of the American Bill of Rights of 1791: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Thomas Jefferson famously saw those words as "building a wall of separation between church and state." So, much later, did John F. Kennedy, who in a speech predating Romney's by 47 years, declared: "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."
The absolute has proved porous. The U.S. culture wars of recent years have produced what David Campbell, a political scientist at Notre Dame University, called "the injection of religion into politics in a very overt way."
European sources of alarm at George W. Bush's presidency have been manifold, but unease at his allusions to divine guidance - "the hand of a just and faithful God" in shaping events or his trust in "the ways of Providence" - has been particularly acute.
Such beliefs seem to remove decision-making from the realm of the rational at the very moment when the West's enemy acts in the name of a fanatical theocracy. At worst, they produce references to a "crusade" against those jihadist enemies. God-given knowledge does not take kindly to oversight.
But Bush is no transient phenomenon; he is the expression of a new American religiosity rather than the creator of it. Romney's speech and the rapid emergence of the anti-Darwin Baptist minister Mike Huckabee as a rival Republican candidate suggest how distant the American zeitgeist is from the European.
At a time when growing numbers of Americans identify themselves as "born again" evangelicals, and creationism is no joke, Romney's speech essentially pitted the faithful against the faithless while attempting to merge Mormonism into mainstream Christianity. Where Kennedy said he believed in a "president whose religious views are his own private affair," Romney pledged not to "separate us from our religious heritage."
"Religiosity now seems at least as important for public office as leadership qualities," said Karl Kaiser, a German political scientist. "The entrance condition for the American presidential race is being religious. If you're not, you have no chance, which troubles Europeans."
Of course, the religious heritage of which Romney spoke is profound. The Puritans' vision of "a city upon a hill" in America serving as a beacon to humanity was based on a "covenant" with God. As the Bill of Rights was formulated, George Washington issued his Thanksgiving Proclamation alluding to "that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be."
But if religion informed America's formation, its distancing from the political sphere was decisive to the republic's resilience. Indeed, the devastating European experience of religious war and intolerance played an important role in the founders' thinking. Seen against this backdrop, Romney's speech and the society it reflects is far more troubling than Europe's empty cathedrals.
Romney allows no place in the United States for atheists, who do not merit a mention. He opines that "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom," yet secular Sweden is free while religious Iran is not.
He shows a Wikipedia-level appreciation of other religions - admiring "the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims" and "the ancient traditions of the Jews" - that suggests his innermost conviction of what America's true religion is. In all, masked beneath professions of tolerance, a faith-first Christian vision emerges.
Romney rejected the "religion of secularism," of which Europe is on the whole proud. But he should consider that Washington is well worth a Mass. The fires of the Reformation that destroyed St. Andrews Cathedral are fires of faith that endure in different forms. Jefferson's "wall of separation" must be restored if those who would destroy the West's Enlightenment values are to be quashed. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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What a load of crap this article is. Separation of church and state means that the state won't institute a state religion the way European powers HAD ALWAYS done. It didn't mean abolishing the role of religion or the religious in government.
Europe's religions and states were synonymous, that may be why they are so turned off to religion. In America, the state never controlled religion, so Americans are quite happy going to church.
Europe is in a long death spiral, and many see its lack of religion as part of that. |
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The_Eyeball_Kid
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
What a load of crap this article is. Separation of church and state means that the state won't institute a state religion the way European powers HAD ALWAYS done. It didn't mean abolishing the role of religion or the religious in government.
Europe's religions and states were synonymous, that may be why they are so turned off to religion. In America, the state never controlled religion, so Americans are quite happy going to church.
Europe is in a long death spiral, and many see its lack of religion as part of that. |
You are an absolute f u c k w i t. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Sundubman I think you missed the point of the article.
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"Religiosity now seems at least as important for public office as leadership qualities," said Karl Kaiser, a German political scientist. "The entrance condition for the American presidential race is being religious. If you're not, you have no chance, which troubles Europeans." |
Non-Americans look at the importance of religion in the Presidential races in the USA as troubling at best. We don't want the leader of the free world consulting "god" when stuff goes down. We'd rather he consult experts and get to work. Praying is a waste of time. |
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The_Eyeball_Kid
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
Sundubman I think you missed the point of the article.
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"Religiosity now seems at least as important for public office as leadership qualities," said Karl Kaiser, a German political scientist. "The entrance condition for the American presidential race is being religious. If you're not, you have no chance, which troubles Europeans." |
Non-Americans look at the importance of religion in the Presidential races in the USA as troubling at best. We don't want the leader of the free world consulting "god" when stuff goes down. We'd rather he consult experts and get to work. Praying is a waste of time. |
This reversion to values long since discarded by more enlightened Europeans can most likely be traced to the mobilization of the religious right by Reagan's campaigners in the late 70's. Previously, the God-fearing fuckwits in the flyover states had chosen not to vote, but Republican strategists saw them as an invaluable tool in securing the White House and so tied issues of personal morality to political causes (abortion, gay rights, education, etc), which had exactly the desired effect. The unfortunate consequences of this alliance are what we are seeing now. Instead of fading into history as they should have done, the religious right have instead become validated and empowered to tragic effect. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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In the HBO doc about Goldwater the claim is made the BG spent much time warning people that the nutty religious types would drive the party and country into the ground. I don't know much about the guy other than that.
wikiquote attributes this to Goldwater:
When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.
Also:
I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."
Robert Cardinal Bellarmine (1542-1621), trial of Galileo in 1615 |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."
George W. Bush |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| *Cough* One nation under God *Cough* |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."
George W. Bush |
I call bullshit on that quote.
http://www.slate.com/id/2109228/
| George Bush wrote: |
[M]y answer to people is, I will be your president regardless of your faith, and I don't expect you to agree with me necessarily on religion. As a matter of fact, no president should ever try to impose religion on our society.
A great�the great tradition of America is one where people can worship the way they want to worship. And if they choose not to worship, they're just as patriotic as your neighbor [italics mine]. That is an essential part of why we are a great nation. And I am glad people of faith voted in this election. I'm glad�I appreciate all people who voted. I don't think you ought to read anything into the politics, the moment, about whether or not this nation will become a divided nation over religion. I think the great thing that unites is the fact you can worship freely if you choose, and if you�you don't have to worship [italics mine]. And if you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, you're equally American. That is�that is such a wonderful aspect of our society; and it is strong today and it will be strong tomorrow. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Eyeball_Kid wrote: |
| sundubuman wrote: |
What a load of crap this article is. Separation of church and state means that the state won't institute a state religion the way European powers HAD ALWAYS done. It didn't mean abolishing the role of religion or the religious in government.
Europe's religions and states were synonymous, that may be why they are so turned off to religion. In America, the state never controlled religion, so Americans are quite happy going to church.
Europe is in a long death spiral, and many see its lack of religion as part of that. |
You are an absolute f u c k w i t. |
So much for intelligent debate. Grow up.
Europe's current harmony is not a result of its adoption of secular humanism, it is a result of the United States imposing more or less by force a pax Americana.
As it looks down its snooty nose at religious Americans (meanwhile worshipping Hindu new-age healers and the Dalai Lama)..its naive faith in its own secular nirvana is currently being drowned by a miniscule birth rate and increasing immigration of largely non-assimilating minorities.
If it had maintained some modicum of faith and tradition, which has led to at least a basic replacement level of fertility in the States, maybe it wouldn't be facing the existential crisis it is soon to be encountering.
But its much more fun to poo poo simple religious Americans while the cafe burns. |
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The_Eyeball_Kid
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| The_Eyeball_Kid wrote: |
| sundubuman wrote: |
What a load of crap this article is. Separation of church and state means that the state won't institute a state religion the way European powers HAD ALWAYS done. It didn't mean abolishing the role of religion or the religious in government.
Europe's religions and states were synonymous, that may be why they are so turned off to religion. In America, the state never controlled religion, so Americans are quite happy going to church.
Europe is in a long death spiral, and many see its lack of religion as part of that. |
You are an absolute f u c k w i t. |
So much for intelligent debate. Grow up.
Europe's current harmony is not a result of its adoption of secular humanism, it is a result of the United States imposing more or less by force a pax Americana.
As it looks down its snooty nose at religious Americans (meanwhile worshipping Hindu new-age healers and the Dalai Lama)..its naive faith in its own secular nirvana is currently being drowned by a miniscule birth rate and increasing immigration of largely non-assimilating minorities.
If it had maintained some modicum of faith and tradition, which has led to at least a basic replacement level of fertility in the States, maybe it wouldn't be facing the existential crisis it is soon to be encountering.
But its much more fun to poo poo simple religious Americans while the cafe burns. |
I refer you to my previous response, you right-wing crackpot. Good fucking lord, I sincerely hope you're not a teacher, and most certainly not a teacher of children. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."
George W. Bush |
I call *beep* on that quote.
http://www.slate.com/id/2109228/
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I think he meant George HW.Bush
| Quote: |
When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice-president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates, had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists. |
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
Europe is in a long death spiral, and many see its lack of religion as part of that. |
Yeah, fcuk Sweden!! |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Justin Hale wrote: |
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."
George W. Bush |
I call *beep* on that quote.
http://www.slate.com/id/2109228/
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I think he meant George HW.Bush
| Quote: |
When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice-president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates, had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists. |
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm |
Wow. You learn something new everyday. My respect for H.W. just dropped a few notches. |
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