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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:13 am Post subject: The problems... |
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"you cost me money" - the students don't like me and they leave. they don't say they don't like me, the mom does after the kid quits
"No games but make the class fun" - we cannot play games
"No outside material" - none of this resource stuff - mom and dad go directly to the book, the kid must know that part of the book or else.
"We hate you" - you wont let us talk, its too noisy here so I don't like it
These things add up. Its been fun tho kind of. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:40 am Post subject: Re: The problems... |
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| dulouz wrote: |
"you cost me money" - the students don't like me and they leave. they don't say they don't like me, the mom does after the kid quits
"No games but make the class fun" - we cannot play games
"No outside material" - none of this resource stuff - mom and dad go directly to the book, the kid must know that part of the book or else.
"We hate you" - you wont let us talk, its too noisy here so I don't like it
These things add up. Its been fun tho kind of. |
Something very wrong here. The kid doesn't quit. It's the mum that pulls them out.
What exactly are you driving at? |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:44 am Post subject: |
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I'm not certain what I'm driving at. On Monday the kid and I are fine. Tuesday - I'm some manner of SOB and the kid isn't at the hogwan anymore. Its a problem but I'm not sure what to think or do about it.  |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: The problems... |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| "you cost me money" - the students don't like me and they leave. they don't say they don't like me, the mom does after the kid quits |
So rather than go on the offensive of "why didn't you tell me earlier?", grab a notepad and write down what's not working out. Welcome to the real world. People aren't always going to complain and then continue to give additional chances. If I was paying by the lesson for Japanese and my teacher was useless, I'd be quitting and moving on with it being very unlikely I would be granting second chances.
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| "No games but make the class fun" - we cannot play games |
I rarely ever play games with classes of students older than six, but that doesn't mean that the classes aren't fun. Too many teachers fall back onto "let's play a game" for crowd control and entertainment. If you can entertain and enlighten without games, you shall walk down that same path I and others have walked before you.
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| "No outside material" - none of this resource stuff - mom and dad go directly to the book, the kid must know that part of the book or else. |
Your point is? The only outside material I ever use is if I have a few extra minutes at the end of class or at the beginning if the students look tired, so we'll talk about my "super shoes!" or my "super phone!" or my "super MD!". Outside material can't be taken home, so students can't study it at home.
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| "We hate you" - you wont let us talk, its too noisy here so I don't like it |
In case you missed memo, you can already speak English. The goal is to get students speaking English. If students only wanted to listen to a native speaker talk, they would rent a movie and sit at home.
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| These things add up. Its been fun tho kind of. |
It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Take the identified problems and correct them. Even I, the greatest teacher in ESL history that childen and adults sing songs of in unison proclaiming the mastery of my English lessons, was not perfect in the beginning. But rather than go on the offensive when faced with complaints, I embraced the complaints and corrected my ways. |
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gambo tong
Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Location: Pyeongcheon
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:59 pm Post subject: no games?? |
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| I rarely play games with kids older than six... |
I'm just curious about this idea... I have a B.Ed in 2nd language education and we were TAUGHT to use games in class! In fact, during my practicum I played a game with my HIGH SCHOOL students for the last 10 minutes of every class. This was encouraged and praised by my supervisers. I even played games when I taught ESL to adults... they loved it!
Games (educational ones, anyway) are an excellent way to teach a foreign language! They are not only enjoyable for the students and the teacher, but they are also are a great way for students to practice what they have learned and USE the language. I've used pictionary, Simon Says, 20 questions, jeopardy, among others.
Games are a great learning tool. Why would you NOT use them? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: no games?? |
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| gambo tong wrote: |
| Games are a great learning tool. Why would you NOT use them? |
By games, I refer to traditional games. But I do many puzzle exercises. "Give me a sentence. You, give me a sentence using two words from his sentence. Five seconds." Etc. If I can't do an exercise involving multiple people in one minute, it doesn't really benefit the class as a whole.
Games that require any sort of scoring, board, or set-up only detract from a speaking class. Though on a rare occasion, I'll do letter bingo.
"Give me a letter. Now give me a word starting with that letter. Now give me a sentence using that word. No repeat sentences like 'I like Apples. I like cars'. Five seconds." Or two words in one sentece for higher level classes. A game everyone can play that can serve as a grammar review.
I'm not saying games are bad, but rather in an English speaking class one needs to consider how the game is played Too many games that we played growing up tend to have very little speaking and are of lesser benefit in an English speaking class than other options available. Example, traditional "hangman" is of far better value in a class that focuses on spelling than in a speaking class, even though it has some value in addressing pronunciation of letters and review of basic spelling. But in a class of English speaking, other games would be far more effective.
EDIT: To add the last part and BECAUSE I SPEEK ENGLISH TEH GOODEST!
Last edited by Gord on Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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indytrucks
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Location: The Shelf
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: no games?? |
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| gambo tong wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I rarely play games with kids older than six... |
I'm just curious about this idea... I have a B.Ed in 2nd language education and we were TAUGHT to use games in class! In fact, during my practicum I played a game with my HIGH SCHOOL students for the last 10 minutes of every class. This was encouraged and praised by my supervisers. I even played games when I taught ESL to adults... they loved it!
Games (educational ones, anyway) are an excellent way to teach a foreign language! They are not only enjoyable for the students and the teacher, but they are also are a great way for students to practice what they have learned and USE the language. I've used pictionary, Simon Says, 20 questions, jeopardy, among others.
Games are a great learning tool. Why would you NOT use them? |
Amen to that. Games like the ones you mentioned may on the surface seem simple, but such activities put emphasis on:
a) oral brainstorming
b) discovery of information from the "knower" to the "listener" with limitations on the transmission
c) reinforcement and practice with using simply constucted sentences and instructions
d) simple games like these can easily be expanded into group discussions and further activities
Not to mention they can be a blast. I regularly use similar ideas with my uni students. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Gord:"Even I, the greatest teacher in ESL history...."
Me:"I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy! Master! Teach me... teach us!I...we... humbly beseech thee!"
Gord, you're one for the books... and for certification, for that matter.... |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: The problems... |
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| dulouz wrote: |
"you cost me money" - the students don't like me and they leave. they don't say they don't like me, the mom does after the kid quits
"No games but make the class fun" - we cannot play games
"No outside material" - none of this resource stuff - mom and dad go directly to the book, the kid must know that part of the book or else.
"We hate you" - you wont let us talk, its too noisy here so I don't like it
These things add up. Its been fun tho kind of. |
I've had all this stuff thrown at me. It's not a problem usually. You just have to adjust what you do in the classroom to please everybody at the same time  .
The problem is when you do what you're told, then the director has a different parent complain about the opposite. i.e parent 1 complains, "class no fun, more games" parent 2 complains "no games, only study (book)" Then you have what I call 'see-saw management'. It goes something like this.
Week 1:
Director: Kids in 50C bored and tired in class, play games a lot more.
Teacher: Sure thing boss, whatever you say.
Week 2
Director: I'm very upset with you.
Teacher: Um why?
Director: You play games too much in 50C class.
Teacher: That's what you told me to do.
Director: No you must study the book, no games!
Teacher: Ok, sure thing boss, whatever you say.
Week 3
see week 1
Week 4
see week 2
and so on.
This is the hagwon game man!!
It sounds like you have a boss like my previous one.
Whatever you do you are screwed. 
Yep you can have fun with it though.
Kids say "Teacher game, game game." You say "Wonjangnim says no game, ask her"
etc etc
Ahh make the best you can of every situation. If the management makes it crappy for you, turn it around on them. |
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Austin
Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:59 pm Post subject: Polar opposites... |
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| To avoid the problems of the "seesaw" try not to change your classes so dramatically. Instead, try to gradually tweak your classes. You may find that will better serve your cause in the end. |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Polar opposites... |
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| Austin wrote: |
| To avoid the problems of the "seesaw" try not to change your classes so dramatically. Instead, try to gradually tweak your classes. You may find that will better serve your cause in the end. |
That is good advice. That is what I have always done. The example of seesaw management was from my previous director. One week 10 minutes at the end of class playing a game was too much the next not enough.
I found that whatever I did I would get b%*$#ed at, so I did my own thing.
I had one of those standard middle school classes, silent as stones. There was high turnover. I got them to do dramatic roleplays, they still studied the text just not for the whole 50 minutes. One boy who hardly ever said anything before really go into it, volunteering to do female parts, putting on a high voice etc. I was loving it. I thought the kids were too, turnover dropped a lot. Then I got an earful from the boss, "What the hell are you doing etc etc. None of this nonsense only use the book!" I had no choice but to do what the boss said. Within about 6 weeks there was no more class, they had all quit.
Basically, what I am trying to point out is that in a lot of hagwon teachers cannot be teachers, because management will not let them. |
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Zed
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Horangi Munshin wrote:
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| I had one of those standard middle school classes, silent as stones. There was high turnover. I got them to do dramatic roleplays, they still studied the text just not for the whole 50 minutes. One boy who hardly ever said anything before really go into it, volunteering to do female parts, putting on a high voice etc. I was loving it. I thought the kids were too, turnover dropped a lot. Then I got an earful from the boss, "What the hell are you doing etc etc. None of this nonsense only use the book!" I had no choice but to do what the boss said. Within about 6 weeks there was no more class, they had all quit. |
How did you get them to do role playing? It seems to have been effective for you but I've never been able to get kids to break out of their shells like this. No problem in Spain but not here. I do find that they like taking roles in reading plays but not coming up with their own ideas.
Dulouz: I was in a situation like yours at my first hagwon. The solution I found was to just try and do what they told me. It was very frustrating. No matter what the problem was it was my fault. 'Play lots of games' edicts followed by 'play no games' edicts. 'Use many supplements' edicts to 'don't use any supplements' edicts. While Austin's advice may be sound in certain circumstances it wouldn't have flown at my school. The director would watch over the camera. The supervisor would patrol the halls peering into each window to ensure that this weeks edict was being followed to a tee. Paper was rationed and any games materials were confiscated/lost to mysteriously reappear at a later time. Tweaking a lesson wasn't an option. BUT while this was hell while I was the new guy, the longer I stayed at the school and tried to do what they were telling me to do, the more they came around to appreciating me and when that began to happen I started getting some leeway in the class. They would hound the newer teachers and I was able to teach more in a manner that I found effective. Eventually I was made senior teacher there and they didn't bother me anymore about using too many games, supplements, whatever. Of course by this time I was a decent teacher so they had less to complain about that was legitimate. Essentially, I stuck it out, survived all the others that couldn't hack it, and the problem went away. I hope you are so lucky.
As for Gord's advice to grab a pen and take notes: If you can tell that the problems about students quitting lie with the school's policy and not with your teaching then don't take it too much to heart. Otherwise that would be good advice. I don't think it applies to your situation. It certainly didn't apply to mine. |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Oops it seems I used the wrong word. I got the students to read parts first, then got them out of their chairs. Of course they were very shy, but eventually they did act a bit. Yeah you're absolutely right about them not wanting to come up with their own stuff. The best I could do was to have them pratice a basic script, then get them to change some pieces of it and act that out. |
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OiGirl
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: Hoke-y-gun
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Would it be useful, when someone tries to engage you inthe seesaw game, to carefully plan and write down your lessons with timings, adding 5 minutes of the desired activity every day until you were told to do something different? At least you would have documentation that you did what you were told. |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| OiGirl wrote: |
| Would it be useful, when someone tries to engage you inthe seesaw game, to carefully plan and write down your lessons with timings, adding 5 minutes of the desired activity every day until you were told to do something different? At least you would have documentation that you did what you were told. |
That would have worked had my previous director actually given a toss.
She just changed her mind, it seemed, everytime a parent complained or demanded something. It didn't matter that I was following instructions. The instructions changed, if I didn't telepathically know that she wanted a change it was my fault. That was the kind of work atmosphere. |
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