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kittykoo
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: IF THE OLD RULES DONT WORK--MAKE NEW RULES |
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I am new posting on this board, but I have been reading the posts for a long time.
I have read innumerable posts about how the new visa rules are impossible to comply with and I think it is just about time to think of the most effective way to circumvent them. I have always thought that English teachers should have more responsibility for themselves in a foreign country, and that the largest part of the problems we have in Korea are due to letting the Koreans pay our way for us. Of course they own us if they pay for our housing, our airfare and our visas!
What is to stop us from registering ourselves as business owners selling our services and entering Korea on a business visa. While we are here, we conduct our business (teaching English) as independent agents and make arrangements for paying our own bills etc., commanding a salary that would allow us to profitably do this without selling our souls to the devil in the process?
Just wondering. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't you need a $50,000 investment for a business visa?? |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: IF THE OLD RULES DONT WORK--MAKE NEW RULES |
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| kittykoo wrote: |
I What is to stop us from registering ourselves as business owners selling our services and entering Korea on a business visa. While we are here, we conduct our business (teaching English) as independent agents and make arrangements for paying our own bills etc., commanding a salary that would allow us to profitably do this without selling our souls to the devil in the process?
Just wondering. |
A few problems with that grand idea.
First off all, most people who come here seem to be the fresh out of university crowd. Of course that does not describe everyone, but it seems to be a majority. Most of them do not have enough money to live here for a month without housing, pre-paid plane ticket... And how many people would be willing to shell out the cash while facing the possibility that if the employer doesn't like your looks he could leave you at the airport (happened to a few people)
And how many Korean landlords would be willing to sell to a foreigner who if the house is damaged can just up and leave? The majority of us can't even get Korean credit cards, who's going to be willing to rent a house or apartment to someone who can just skip town? And that's assuming the Korean landlord can understand what the person wants...even if you knew where to find one.
And speaking/teaching English in Korea is not considered a business. You couldn't get a business visa for that. That's why they have E-2 and F-2 and a whole series of language visas for that.
And as far as your thread's title goes...we don't make the rules here. We have to play by theirs or we are gone. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Providing us housing, airfare and other benefits doesn't make anyone "own" us. Just like my employer in the states didn't "own" me by providing health insurance and paid vacation. It's part of the job offer, not a signature into slavery. We are able to leave the job, even though that means leaving the country. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Like everyone else, I would prefer to have some autonomy, but even after being here a few years I still don't have enough for "key money" and even if I did...I would be very hesitant to surrender so much of my own moolah without some assurance that I could get it back if and when I decided to leave. |
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Suwoner10
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: IF THE OLD RULES DONT WORK--MAKE NEW RULES |
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| kittykoo wrote: |
I am new posting on this board, but I have been reading the posts for a long time.
I have read innumerable posts about how the new visa rules are impossible to comply with and I think it is just about time to think of the most effective way to circumvent them. I have always thought that English teachers should have more responsibility for themselves in a foreign country, and that the largest part of the problems we have in Korea are due to letting the Koreans pay our way for us. Of course they own us if they pay for our housing, our airfare and our visas!
What is to stop us from registering ourselves as business owners selling our services and entering Korea on a business visa. While we are here, we conduct our business (teaching English) as independent agents and make arrangements for paying our own bills etc., commanding a salary that would allow us to profitably do this without selling our souls to the devil in the process?
Just wondering. |
Where did you find 'shrooms here in Korea? |
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kittykoo
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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In Canada, and probably a lot of places, you can get a business license for peanuts. I'd have to check what the requirements are for a business visa. What I am driving at is that as indentured servants we do not have a lot of rights. The employer holds the reins, and that is not going to change as long as s/he is paying up for everything. Why do you think they do it that way?
I for one, found it demeaning to work for someone who was paying for my civil rights, and found that I had no moral leg to stand on when I wanted to negotiate a better situation. I just had to grin and bear whatever my bosses wanted. I was fortunate in that my employers were decent to me, and even then, the situation was problematic.
As to the problems suggested by the other poster:
1. As housing is already part of the package offered by most employers,
nothing would have to change other than the fact that we would pay rent, or key money. to be deducted from our salary.
2. Air fare and food for a month would not be too big a setback for most people, even youngsters who could earn that much flipping burgers for a couple of months, or could use a credit card for the first little while.
3. We can just up and leave now. If we had a vested interest we might be less ready to do that.
4. My point is that we are G-8 countries with passports that allow us to travel freely. If the E2s, etc. are not working, then we can find a better way. They have us in a half-nelson with their visa rules. It's not practicable. So, I suggest that if we want to own our own lives, there might be other possibilities than letting Koreans give us the business.
Surely the first English teachers off the boat did not walk into a ready-made proposition. These things evolve, and they might evolve more profitably for us if they did so around autonomous teachers than around free-loaders.
5. But Koreans don't go by the rules. They have no respect for us, and possibly none for themselves in their dealings with us. We're (excuse the expression) beasts of burden. That is the problem as I see it. And we do have something to say about that. To me, an end-run around Koreans' usurpation of my rights seems to have a better chance of success than trying to fight for something I have sold my rights to. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kittykoo wrote: |
In Canada, and probably a lot of places, you can get a business license for peanuts. I'd have to check what the requirements are for a business visa. What I am driving at is that as indentured servants we do not have a lot of rights. The employer holds the reins, and that is not going to change as long as s/he is paying up for everything. Why do you think they do it that way?
I for one, found it demeaning to work for someone who was paying for my civil rights, and found that I had no moral leg to stand on when I wanted to negotiate a better situation. I just had to grin and bear whatever my bosses wanted. I was fortunate in that my employers were decent to me, and even then, the situation was problematic.
As to the problems suggested by the other poster:
1. As housing is already part of the package offered by most employers,
nothing would have to change other than the fact that we would pay rent, or key money. to be deducted from our salary.
2. Air fare and food for a month would not be too big a setback for most people, even youngsters who could earn that much flipping burgers for a couple of months, or could use a credit card for the first little while.
3. We can just up and leave now. If we had a vested interest we might be less ready to do that.
4. My point is that we are G-8 countries with passports that allow us to travel freely. If the E2s, etc. are not working, then we can find a better way. They have us in a half-nelson with their visa rules. It's not practicable. So, I suggest that if we want to own our own lives, there might be other possibilities than letting Koreans give us the business.
Surely the first English teachers off the boat did not walk into a ready-made proposition. These things evolve, and they might evolve more profitably for us if they did so around autonomous teachers than around free-loaders.
5. But Koreans don't go by the rules. They have no respect for us, and possibly none for themselves in their dealings with us. We're (excuse the expression) beasts of burden. That is the problem as I see it. And we do have something to say about that. To me, an end-run around Koreans' usurpation of my rights seems to have a better chance of success than trying to fight for something I have sold my rights to. |
I agree the new E-2 rules are stupid and I know they won't help the situation in Korea much. I still disagree with your take on teachers' situations in Korea.
In regards to your numbered points:
1. Most places offer money in lieu of an apartment. I personally found my own apartment, my school doesn't have a key, etc. I still don't understand how having a provided apartment makes us less free here.
2. Once again, how exactly does provided airfare obligate us to anything more than if we paid for it ourselves? Except for paying back the airfare if we quit early, there are no more obligations. I like getting free tickets.
3. Yes, we can just up and leave, exactly why we aren't "owned."
4. The Metropolitician's blog last month or so had a great idea about making a new visa for E-2 teachers that had been her for 3 years and passed certain criteria. The new visa would allow us to change jobs like an F-series visa does. However, Korea won't listen and like another poster said, we play by Korea's rules or leave.
5. A lot of Koreans don't respect us, but I haven't yet had a my employer break or attempt to break our signed contract. I'm also very well treated and respected in my school. Many aren't and are in bad situations where employers break the rules. That's when the labor board is called and/or the employee ditches and pulls a runner. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| icnelly wrote: |
| Don't you need a $50,000 investment for a business visa?? |
Yes you do.
Every foreigner needs 50.000.000 won in a Korean bank account before they can register as a business. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| icnelly wrote: |
| Don't you need a $50,000 investment for a business visa?? |
Yes you do.
Every foreigner needs 50.000.000 won in a Korean bank account before they can register as a business. |
But you won't be able to use it when you travel abroad as Korean banks don't want you to have an Intl. ATM card. |
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kittykoo
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the three year exemptions make a difference for those teachers, but even they are subjected to the conditions that prevail here and that are a direct result of our non-paying guest status.
| Quote: |
1. Most places offer money in lieu of an apartment. I personally found my own apartment, my school doesn't have a key, etc. I still don't understand how having a provided apartment makes us less free here.
2. Once again, how exactly does provided airfare obligate us to anything more than if we paid for it ourselves? Except for paying back the airfare if we quit early, there are no more obligations. I like getting free tickets.
3. Yes, we can just up and leave, exactly why we aren't "owned."
4. The Metropolitician's blog last month or so had a great idea about making a new visa for E-2 teachers that had been her for 3 years and passed certain criteria. The new visa would allow us to change jobs like an F-series visa does. However, Korea won't listen and like another poster said, we play by Korea's rules or leave.
5. A lot of Koreans don't respect us, but I haven't yet had a my employer break or attempt to break our signed contract. I'm also very well treated and respected in my school. Many aren't and are in bad situations where employers break the rules. That's when the labor board is called and/or the employee ditches and pulls a runner. |
1. You don't understand how non-payment of rent obligates us to our landlord or payer-of-rent?
2. When I buy my ticket using my own money I exercise considerably more control than if someone buys it for me. And if money is not the question, then paying my own way and negotiating a bigger wage is. Just that. If someone buys it for me I'm a pawn, and if I buy it myself I'm a free agent.
3. I don't want to have to up and leave anywhere, and if I am the master of my fate, in the driver's seat of my life, I won't have to. The issue with runners is that they are so pressured and lacking in resources that they can't see any better solution. With a vested interest in seeing the contract to its end, there is much less likelihood that a rent-paying, ticket-holding bearer of his/her own visa would have to face the kinds of hassles that make some teachers run.
4. Koreans have no respect for foreign teachers at least in part because we are not here on our own dime.
5. Even if they abide by the contract we are locked in to situation in which we hit the glass ceiling the day we arrive. I worked for three years for the same employer, and was put through the mill just on principle. There is no way I was ever going to advance beyong my entry level position, and the years of experience did not amount to a hill of beans because I was taking up space that the employer had bought and paid for.
End of story. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| icnelly wrote: |
| Don't you need a $50,000 investment for a business visa?? |
Yes. Minimum. |
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kittykoo
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
icnelly wrote:
Don't you need a $50,000 investment for a business visa??
Yes. Minimum. |
Maybe teachers should organize in their home countries to become part of such a business (for a more modest contribution) and then proceed to Korea as a representative of said business. I don't know. There has to be more ways to go about this than the old route. The way things are now, we are a subservient class of people whose rights and privileges are being bought and sold out from under us. I know racism dies hard, and westerners are accused of being the worst racists, and that could be another cause of a lot of the reaction against westerners in Korea. That being said, the issue of letting Koreans pay for the privilege of denigrating us is just not the way to go. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kittykoo wrote: |
Well, the three year exemptions make a difference for those teachers, but even they are subjected to the conditions that prevail here and that are a direct result of our non-paying guest status.
| Quote: |
1. Most places offer money in lieu of an apartment. I personally found my own apartment, my school doesn't have a key, etc. I still don't understand how having a provided apartment makes us less free here.
2. Once again, how exactly does provided airfare obligate us to anything more than if we paid for it ourselves? Except for paying back the airfare if we quit early, there are no more obligations. I like getting free tickets.
3. Yes, we can just up and leave, exactly why we aren't "owned."
4. The Metropolitician's blog last month or so had a great idea about making a new visa for E-2 teachers that had been her for 3 years and passed certain criteria. The new visa would allow us to change jobs like an F-series visa does. However, Korea won't listen and like another poster said, we play by Korea's rules or leave.
5. A lot of Koreans don't respect us, but I haven't yet had a my employer break or attempt to break our signed contract. I'm also very well treated and respected in my school. Many aren't and are in bad situations where employers break the rules. That's when the labor board is called and/or the employee ditches and pulls a runner. |
1. You don't understand how non-payment of rent obligates us to our landlord or payer-of-rent?
2. When I buy my ticket using my own money I exercise considerably more control than if someone buys it for me. And if money is not the question, then paying my own way and negotiating a bigger wage is. Just that. If someone buys it for me I'm a pawn, and if I buy it myself I'm a free agent.
3. I don't want to have to up and leave anywhere, and if I am the master of my fate, in the driver's seat of my life, I won't have to. The issue with runners is that they are so pressured and lacking in resources that they can't see any better solution. With a vested interest in seeing the contract to its end, there is much less likelihood that a rent-paying, ticket-holding bearer of his/her own visa would have to face the kinds of hassles that make some teachers run.
4. Koreans have no respect for foreign teachers at least in part because we are not here on our own dime.
5. Even if they abide by the contract we are locked in to situation in which we hit the glass ceiling the day we arrive. I worked for three years for the same employer, and was put through the mill just on principle. There is no way I was ever going to advance beyong my entry level position, and the years of experience did not amount to a hill of beans because I was taking up space that the employer had bought and paid for.
End of story. |
The fact that we sign a one year contract is what obligates us to perform our duties in the schools, and we can still break the contract and leave if the situation is bad.
What you are saying about having an apartment and airfare provided doesn't bring on more obligations (except, as I mentioned, paying back airfare if we break a contract).
Korean hogwan owners or principals aren't saying to themselves "I won't respect this teacher because I paid for their plane ticket" or "Since the teacher got their own apartment, I will respect him more." Lack of respect is the culture, and we aren't Korean.
Paying airfare and providing a place to live, or money for a place, is part of the Korean system. Without it, teachers wouldn't come here, just like we wouldn't come here if wages weren't more than Japan, China or other countries. It isn't an issue of "respect," it's an issue of need.
I think the problems you see would be fixed if everyone was able to act like they were on an F-series visa and change jobs without losing the visa. Taking away airfare and housing won't simply make Koreans respect foreigner teachers anymore than they do now. |
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The Perfect Cup of Coffee
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Not bad, managed to make it the 7th post before "In Canada..." |
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