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Canucksaram
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: Comma usage query |
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Hi, folks. I'd like some teacher feedback on a question of comma usage that appears in a Macmillan McGraw-Hill reader that my students are using.
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Dear Richard,
We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee that sank off he coast of Rhode Island. Is it close to where you live? Do you know anyone who was aboard? |
In the above paragraph I think there should be a further comma after Gaspee, so that it reads "We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee, that sank off the coast of Rhode Island."
Later on this appears:
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When our leader, the governor of Rhode Island complained, the British commander paid no attention. |
Again, a comma is missing, I feel, after "Rhode Island." I feel it should read, "When our leader, the governor of Rhode Island, complained, the British commander paid no attention."
Am I right? |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Comma usage query |
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| Canucksaram wrote: |
Hi, folks. I'd like some teacher feedback on a question of comma usage that appears in a Macmillan McGraw-Hill reader that my students are using.
| Quote: |
Dear Richard,
We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee that sank off he coast of Rhode Island. Is it close to where you live? Do you know anyone who was aboard? |
In the above paragraph I think there should be a further comma after Gaspee, so that it reads "We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee, that sank off the coast of Rhode Island."
Later on this appears:
| Quote: |
When our leader, the governor of Rhode Island complained, the British commander paid no attention. |
Again, a comma is missing, I feel, after "Rhode Island." I feel it should read, "When our leader, the governor of Rhode Island, complained, the British commander paid no attention."
Am I right? |
i will answer you as an editor, as well as one who teaches writing:
while you are right to a point - there has been considerable effort over the years to do away with what is considered excessive use of commas so while technically the sentences as stated are correct, you would not be incorrect if you chose to put them there. i think the second sentence actually reads better w/o the additional comma while the first one, i would insert the comma as you have stated.
readibility is what's important, and many people are simply unaware of the fact that a journalistic style is considered the standard. mcgraw-hill is a company that can be considered to stay up to date with the latest styles so again, i wouldn't worry too much about it. |
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tzechuk
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Comma usage query |
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| Canucksaram wrote: |
Hi, folks. I'd like some teacher feedback on a question of comma usage that appears in a Macmillan McGraw-Hill reader that my students are using.
| Quote: |
Dear Richard,
We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee that sank off he coast of Rhode Island. Is it close to where you live? Do you know anyone who was aboard? |
In the above paragraph I think there should be a further comma after Gaspee, so that it reads "We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee, that sank off the coast of Rhode Island." |
So do I.
| Quote: |
Later on this appears:
| Quote: |
When our leader, the governor of Rhode Island complained, the British commander paid no attention. |
Again, a comma is missing, I feel, after "Rhode Island." I feel it should read, "When our leader, the governor of Rhode Island, complained, the British commander paid no attention."
Am I right? |
You are right. |
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idonojacs
Joined: 07 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: |
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I'm a little tired, and am not about to dig out a grammar book for this.
But the problem with the sentence goes beyond the comma.
Instead of "that," it should have been "which."
And when you use "which," in this form, you put a comma before it.
There is a more technical explanation of this rule, and I have actually read it a few times, but do not remember it. It is one of the more difficult rules to understand on a technical level I have come across.
So the consensus among editors is if you need to use "which," simply put a comma before it.
So:
| Quote: |
Dear Richard,
We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee, which sank off he coast of Rhode Island. Is it close to where you live? Do you know anyone who was aboard? |
Now, if it had not given the name of the ship, it could have read:
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| We were shocked to hear about the British ship that sank off .... |
Part of the issue is that there are many British ships, with different names.
Take your brother William.
I was sorry to hear your brother William was on a ship that sank.
You do not set "William" off with commas, as they are not needed for clarity, and you do not have dozens of brothers. (I don't think I explained the rule exactly right. Look it up.)
There may be other factors. Putting "the" in front of Gaspee seems to demand it be set off by commas. Without "the" it could read:
"We were shocked to hear about the British ship Gaspee, which sank off ...."
The bottom line on commas is that they are used to indicated a pause in speaking, which would occur when you say this sentence aloud, and they are used to assure clarity. Putting two commas in the original sentence helps to do both. |
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Snowkr
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the post above.
In this particular adjective clause, "which" is the better choice and does require a comma.
In terms of usage, "that" may be correct... but I think it's too colloquial sounding when read aloud. |
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fancypants
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Comma usage query |
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| Quote: |
Dear Richard,
We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee that sank off he coast of Rhode Island. Is it close to where you live? Do you know anyone who was aboard? |
this relative clause (a subordinate clause describing some noun in the sentence beginning with "which", "that", "who", etc.), strictly speaking, is incorrect because it is a non-restrictive clause, that, i mean which must begin with "which" and not "that'. non-restrictive/non-defining/non-essential clauses give extra "by the way" information about the noun that is incidental and not essential to understanding the exact nature of that noun. don't ask me why we have to use which and not that in these clauses: english is nutty.
"which" and "that" are interchangeable only when the relative clause is restrictive, e.g. the house which/that is on the corner is ugly. by the by, in this case you can take the relative pronoun (which/that) out altogether. you can do this when it is the subject pronoun of the relative clause.
at any rate,in this case, the relative clause defines exactly which house and is therefore essential, i.e. answers the question "which one?"
if all of this is confusing, the thing to remember is if there's a comma, you have to use "which" and not "that".
the sentence should read, "We were shocked to hear about the British ship, the Gaspee , which sank off he coast of Rhode Island"
(according to the grammar police. but as for artistic style and general communication, it's fine.)
i hope this helps. grammar is confusing.
here's more on the topic:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/645/01/ |
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