Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ceadem]

hey

over the last month or so i've been considering the idea of going teaching english in korea (or wherever in asia but korea so far), i'm currently at uni doing a non-related course which finishes in may. So I need to know a few things:

1) how in-depth does my knowledge of english have to be? I don't want to be a crappy teacher, if i do this as a career I intend to be good at it but at the moment when it comes to english grammar I'm not too great at explaining it or even understanding it, something I'm in the process of improving now...

2) Should I get a certificate beforehand? i know of tefl, tesol (same thing?) and celta but i've also come across places like hess who do the training on-site, which is the best route? i understand this'll be subjective so i just want to hear your thoughts on it.

and 3) How am I expected to act as a teacher? basically will i have to dance around and act daft? i like kids but i'm not too keen on the dancing around part, but i'm interested in involving learning cames with cards etc...where will i learn all this, is this lesson planning?

thanks, for any help, this site is a great resource

[oskinny1]

1. In Korea you will probably need to know virtually zero grammar.

2. If you want to do this as a career, think about getting an MA in TEFL. If you want to go an easier route, do CELTA. It is one month and you will learn a ton.

3. Being a dancing monkey can be fun, even if you are teaching adults. It all depends on what level you are teaching and what type of person you are. I don't dance for kids. I do dance for adults...especially my former Czech "Cougar Class".

[ceadem]

[MarionG]

Come to Korea and teach a year or two. Then, IF you like the whole international teaching ESL bit, decide on what sort of additional education
you might like to have. It could be CELTA, MA in education? Applied linguistics? Another degree won't seem so difficult after the passage of a couple of years, and from working in Korea you'll have the $$ to get it.

You can teach yourself grammar (I agree, you won't need it for a long time, but it's nice not to be a dunce about your own language) and I recommend the series of books published by Cambridge, written by Raymond Murphy...really great for speakers of other languages AND for less than knowledgeable native speakers of English.

[tob55]

[ceadem]

thanks for the responses, i'll check those book thanks marionG
i look forward to your message tob55 really informative post thanks for the info. quite interesting how people have said grammar is not a huge concern considering it's for teaching english i suppose the classrooms in korea are very different from the classrooms here (uk) i'm trying to imagine them compared to my experience here, lol, i certainly wouldn't want to teach here

[yeremy]

Actually, if you come to Korea, you would be teaching EFL, that is English as a Foreign Language, and not ESL, which is English as a Second Language, which is taught in countries where English is a native language.

Context is very important. The EFL and ESL teaching contexts are very different, with one holding more of an advantage, according to HD Brown over another. Simply, when you teach in an ESL context, like in the US, or in the UK, your students would not all speak the same native L1 language, but most likely different languages. After class, they would leave the classroom and school into a largely English-speaking environment within which they could practice and experiment with English as much as they wish. This is the advantage that HD Brown spoke about in his books.

On the other hand, Korea is an EFL context, which practically means that here easily 99% of your students will speak Korean as their native L1 language. Once class is over, they will 're-enter' their native L1 speaking environment, which does not usually offer a lot of opportunities of speaking English outside of the EFL classroom.

You wouldn't be alone if you came to Korea without any teaching experience and slightly worried about it. And you do need to know at least your basic grammar to come here. The poster who said you don't need to know any grammar is not (entirely) correct. I worked at a Korean English Institute and I used to be asked grammar questions routinely. When I didn't know, I said so but I looked up the answer asap. Most EFL jobs in Korea do not require any experience, so come on and get on the EFL train with many others. I have also worked at the same elementary school for the past three years and recently this year I have been asked a few difficult questions, one question I was asked by a fifth grader in class, for example, was, "Why are married women called Mrs. in English?" which we take for granted, right? It was a great question.

It's FUN, but I wouldn't want to be an EFL dancing monkey. Respect is earned in Korea, believe it or not, but dancing is not a respectable profession unless you a real dancer. One may come to be an EFL teacher (in Korea) with great intentions to make a difference in learner's lives, to prepare diligently and to be a hardworking teacher, but then one may get stuck teaching 30 plus 50 minute classes a week in an institute, and that diligence is replaced by the desire to survive. That's a hard life as an EFL teacher, which more than a few here do every day.

The top of the EFL food chain. Jeremy Harmer (MS in Linguistics) and David Nunan (PhD in Linguistics) are good examples of people who successfully made a long-term career out of teaching English. I would recommend Harmer's 'How to Teach English' for a primary text to read, if you are interested. He was recently here as a key note speaker at the KOTESOL conference last October, which was well received.

Preparation, for me, is a key to doing a good job as an EFL teacher. More and more there is a lot of material on-line and in books to help you prepare for class. Most likely you won't be free, especially if you're fresh off the plane, to create your own syllabus and curriculum, so I doubt you would have to worry about that, and even if you did, many here would use an EFL textbook series they like for a syllabus.

Learning is golden, but make sure it pays off. As another thread said, you don't need a graduate degree, or even an EFL certificate, but they help to shorten the learning curve quite a bit. Besides, EFL and ESL isn't the highest paying profession in the world and you may wonder what about the return on your investment, especially if you pay tens of thousands of US dollars, for example, but don't finish your program, or you decide later to do something else.

Come one, come all. Experience not required (but it helps a lot). I wouldn't worry about getting a MA or MS in TESOL or Applied Linguistics, Education or English Literature right now, or even in the near future based on what you said. The distance programs in TESOL, for example, generally require two or more years of teaching EFL either at home or abroad. Your country has a lot of such programs, such as at Birmingham, Aston, etc. You could easily check them out if you feel like it at anytime.

Buyer beware. The hidden secret about many of the master's level distance programs is the low graduation rate in a given year, which is something you really should consider gravely if you do want to, or decide to do a postgraduate degree in EFL. I've asked a few programs (names withheld because they're fine institutions) what their graduation rate is and, not surprisingly, they don't want to talk about it. In the course of my research, I found that Aston U was very honest and upfront about the success rate of their on-line students and their application was the most comprehensive of all the schools I checked out.

Sorry for the overly long reply. If you have the time and enough money, I suggest that you do the CELTA certificate which is overseen by Cambridge University in your home country. CELTA is a benchmark in the Korean and European EFL industries. CELTA may or may not really address your future teaching EFL workplace, especially if you are teaching young learners, but what you learn in such educational programs is transferable.

Do come and have many rich teaching and personal experiences and save a bit of money, too. Many here can save up to half of their take home income. And with the new teaching visa changes in the law, you will have more time on your hands before you can actually come to Korea, I think, so go and do that CELTA course. Jeremy Harmer, an Englishman, started out trying to be a lawyer but ended up with a CELTA certficate and then he earned a master's in Linguistics, and today he's a sought after EFL speaker, writer, editor and teacher trainer.

It was nice talking with you. Good luck.

[ceadem]

damn yeremy that was an awesome post, thanks lots of information to digest, very encouraging though, the example you gave about the mrs question was a prime example of what i was worried about, the kinda obvious things we take for granted that i just couldn't explain anyway i'll definitely look for some of harpers books...

thanks again

carl.

[bassexpander]

In response to yeremy's erroneous post about the CELTA being the "benchmark" in Korea....


I have a BA.

I didn't need the CELTA for my university job. I didn't need another certificate from a company like TEFL International certificate for my university job, either.

The same goes for my public school job before this. Or my hagwon job before that.

I didn't need ANY certification.

You don't need a CELTA (or a certificate from a company like TEFL International) in Korea -- especially if you are going to teach kids. Can you learn something taking the CELTA? You bet. I knock the CELTA a lot, but I like the British Council's website for Task-Based Learning activities.

The rule of thumb I tell people to follow goes something like this:

If you are....

... in Korea for just a year or two, and have no plans to teach elsewhere after, don't bother with any TEFL certification.

... in Korea for 3 to 4 years, plan to move on and teach in another country, or stay working a public school job, get a low-cost, approved TEFL course (many are below $400, and can be done via distance. Just make sure they are over 100 hours). If you plan to move around the world and teach in countries that respect the British system, then get a CELTA. All of these certifications (including the CELTA) are useless in the USA.

... in Korea for 5 or more years, you should get, or make plans to get, some kind of teaching certification or an MA in Education/TESOL. You could get a CELTA, but if you've been teaching for more than 4 years, I'd say it's a waste of money.

Remember, the CELTA costs about US $1,500 to $2,500, depending on where you take it. The full TEFL International course is going to be similiar in price (it was last I checked). Korea is naturally much more expensive for the CELTA. One could almost say they gouge you here (when they even offer it), but maybe it's the extra cost of buildings or something -- who knows. Don't forget to factor in flight costs, housing costs, and lost work costs for up to 5 weeks. Any flight costs you'd save by taking it in Korea are squashed by the high price of taking it here (unless prices have changed that I'm not aware of).

I added it all up, and found that I'd be out over 4 million won if I took the CELTA, counting lost work time. Even at a 100,000 won per hour raise for having it, that will take you more than a few years to recoup the costs at a public school job (assuming you are at a school that gives you a meager 100,000 to 200,000 won per month raise for having one). In Korea, a low-cost (500,000 won) online course that is greater than 100 hours will get you the same raise as a CELTA.

Not worth it, given my situation. Neither is TEFL International.

By the way, CELTA now has a long-term course that you can do over several months. I'm not up to speed on what that entails, so I can't comment. I'm sure you'll pay just as much for the base costs, as if you did the full 5 week CELTA.

Remember: MANY OF THESE CERTIFICATES ARE ONLY ACCREDITED BY THE COMPANIES/GROUPS THEY ARE OFFERED BY.

Would you seek medical care from a doctor who is only a doctor because he passed his own accreditation to become a doctor, and therefore certified himself? Now how about paying that doctor $1,500 to $2,500 for medical care which you don't need, and missing 5 weeks of paid work in the process?

Save your money for a course from an accredited institution.

Again, I work at a university, and I didn't need a CELTA or a piece of paper from another program like TEFL International to get my job here. You don't need one to work at a hagwon, either.

It's my personal opinion, as someone who has been teaching in Korea for over five years, that you would be better off getting an MA-TESOL from a reputable university after taking time off from school and saving some money for it.

If you plan on teaching in a country that respects the British system of education, then a CELTA may be helpful to you. In Korea, however, it's hardly a "benchmark." Few schools will even recognize what it is, although it's obvious the CELTA-cult attempts to post messages on here to make it more recognizable.

I'm surprised Dave doesn't start charging them. He should.

[yeremy]

The more I read your posts, the more I think you simply like to argue with others. You must have your central argument against CELTA saved because you clearly copied and pasted most of it, which I have read in the past, in your post.

Mea culpa: I should have said that it is my opinon, but I think it is a reasoned opinion, and not an erroroneus one. I don't have a CELTA, but a BA and I do believe that it is probably more rigorous than the ones (220 hours) I do have. I also agree with what you say that CELTA is not necessary, but it's helpful for sure. I also think that the British Council really has their "you know what" together and I'm not British.

And you're forgetting what a benchmark is. It's "something that serves as a standard by which [other things] may be measured or evaluated." Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, p. 164.

I didn't come to this site to pick fights, or to insult others, or to squabble with people, etc. I registered with Dave's to get in touch with and to interact with others who have an interest and desire to talk about TESOL and Linguistics. I will leave you now to your pleasure.

[Fresh Prince]

When I first arrived in Korea I knew nothing about teaching English. I was given zero training by the hokwon, and was literally told to, "Go teach." Life was good for the first month or so, but soon the students began to get used to the "new teacher," and classroom management seriously became an issue.

The behavioral issues and classroom management issues became so important that I spent a lot of time after work reading articles and things online relating to being a better teacher. I was able to learn a lot that way but the first half of the year was really painful due to my inability to handle the classroom effectively. Although the workdays were short compared to back home, the hours dragged on and the day seemed like it would never end. It wasn't until after I had taught myself basic classroom management techniques and learned other teaching related tools, that the job became enjoyable.

Like other posters have mentioned, the Korean teachers usually teach grammar to the students, so you won't need to be to an expert if your hired with full knowledge that you have no expertise in the field. In fact, intuitively you'll be able to answer most of the questions that come up. There will undoubtedly be a few questions thrown your way that you won't be able to answer but it won't really be that big of a deal.

If I had to do it over again, I would talk to an education professor at the local university or a teacher at a local school and explain my plan to teach English and ask if they would be a mentor for the next few months. Follow the teacher around in class and glean as much knowlege about making lessons interesting, planning a lesson, and manageing students of different age groups.

[bassexpander]

[yeremy]

I did a little internet research about CELTA's value, recognition and place in the EFL world and this is some of what I found.

The essence of your argument and opinion that CELTA is not necessary and not cost effective is that it is not accepted for credit by any university in the world. Wrong. When I was researching distance MA in TESOL degrees in the US and in the UK, I ran across one program that did accept CELTA for some initial credits towards its MA in TESOL. I haven't been able to find that, but I found this.

"The QCA in England, ACCAC in Wales and CCEA in Northern Ireland accredit CELTa as a level 4 qualification in the UK's National Qualifications framework. The accredited title is the Cambridge ESOL Level 4 Certificate in Teaching English to Speakers of other Languages (CELTA). Level 4 establishes CELTA as a degree level course. CELTA graduates receive credits towards undergraduate and postgraduate programmes in the UK, the US and other countries worldwide."
<http://www.cambridgetesol.org/exams-info/faqs/celta-centre.html#3>

I also found similar information on the CELTA @ LSI Toronto website.

In addition, as to a TEFL certificate's worth, I found that the TEFL Course in India <www.teflindia.com> claimed that a Dr. Bill Leon at the University of Washington had evaluated their TEFL certificate for UW credit. That's interesting, because I went to the UW. It will be easy for me to contact them and chase this down. I'm sorry that I haven't called, or e-mailed him first, but I will if you want to check it out.

And I do personally know of a TESL school, which offers an on-site and distance TESL certificate at the School of TESL in Seattle, Washington, which is accepted for graduate credit at Seattle University, on Capital Hill in Seattle. I have been to this TESL school, where I have talked with the director and staff. The only hitch is that you cannot get postgraduate credit for taking their distance TESL course.

Finally, CELTA, apparently, was the first such ESL certificate program. It originated as the in-house teacher's training program at International House in the UK. It was the first and it is moderated by the Cambridge ESOL and the British Council. I do agree with you that this is a bit fishy because it's not an external accreditation, but you are wrong to say that CELTA is not accepted for academic credit. However, it is accepted at the discretion of each academic institution, so I will conditionally agree with you on this, too.

I also want to be crystal clear that I am only disagreeing with your opinion. My wife doesn't always agree with me either, so what else is new? And I am not necessarily a big CELTA fan nor am I a member of the CELTA cult. That was unnecessary and unkind. It's okay with me to agree to disagree, but we should be clear as to what is opinion and what is fact, or more factually based.

I do think CELTA is rather expensive as you noted. I agree that with you that one may be better off doing a distance or on-site MA in TESOL rather than a CELTA, but those degrees are not cheap, too.

Sayonara.