|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Liberal intolerance of intolerance? |
 |
|
There are many political shades of grey in politics. In North America, we've been hit in the past few decades with a lot of liberalism since the 1960s which really transformed the people starting in the 1980s with tons of political correctness. Some of that has been good. There are also people used to views of other cultures based on a certain liberal views of trying to accept others, but they are not aware of how other cultures can hurt them as women or men. You also have many who come to Korea and slam the country very heavily. Do you think some have an intolerance for Korea, because it doesn't fit that liberal mindset they are used to? It is very much like their home was 40 years ago or 50 years ago. Sometimes, some liberal elements expect the world to be in their image. I consider myself a liberal in some ways, but I am conservative in many aspects. I have seen conservatives slam Korea, but some of the very liberal ones slam it even harder. They did all have legitimate complaints. I may not know what I am talking about, but I think some people are disillusioned when they come to Korea when they see how the country is like....
Just some philosophical thoughts... I don't claim to know how different North American cultural types deal with Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Intolerance is the only thing you're allowed to be intolerant about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Do you think some have an intolerance for Korea, because it doesn't fit that liberal mindset they are used to? |
No, I don't think that is the problem at all. I'm convinced the intolerance you see is simply undiagnosed, unacknowledged culture shock.
No matter how much you enjoy the adventure of living in a different culture, there is stress. The stress of dealing with communication problems, the stress of dealing with a new and often very different way of thinking, the stress of always being the one who has to do the compromising... The result is foreigners self-segregating into social cliques, gathering together to bitch and moan about the locals, rather than learning healthy ways of coping.
| Quote: |
but I think some people are disillusioned when they come to Korea when they see how the country is like....
|
I do agree with this. The disillusionment comes from not having much of a grasp of their own culture (how aware is a fish of water?) and then rather blithely moving to another very foreign culture. This seems to be the reason why people constantly compare how it was back home to Korea.
I think most people read about Korea, see the word Confucianism and run to an encyclopedia and review what they read in a paragraph in their sophomore world history class and go, "Oh, OK. Hierarchical society, older is higher rank. No problem." And then they get here and experience what the words really mean and freak out.
It's much easier to be disillusioned and bitter than it is to admit ignorance and the need to learn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Do you think some have an intolerance for Korea, because it doesn't fit that liberal mindset they are used to? |
No, I don't think that is the problem at all. I'm convinced the intolerance you see is simply undiagnosed, unacknowledged culture shock.
No matter how much you enjoy the adventure of living in a different culture, there is stress. The stress of dealing with communication problems, the stress of dealing with a new and often very different way of thinking, the stress of always being the one who has to do the compromising... The result is foreigners self-segregating into social cliques, gathering together to bitch and moan about the locals, rather than learning healthy ways of coping. |
Well, some people who have been to other parts of the world far from East Asia say in the Middle East and Turkey and North Africa or Europe would compare Korea to those places, and they didn't suffer the same culture shock. Of course, culture shock involves accepting differences and Korea is a tough pill to swallow for many people including Asians.
Korea can't really be compared to former colonies of the West or those exposed to it.
Yes, there is natural culture shock. However, every culture is different. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I read a piece not long ago about the Brits living in Manhattan and how they gather to whine about the locals. From what I can tell, culture shock is a universal experience of expats. (Yes, I know some people deny it, but that's called denial.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fredbob
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: Yongin-Breathing the air-sometimes
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
I cannot and will not tolerate intolerance.
Relativism, like any other ism, should have limits.
Now, that being said, tolerance helps me understand the cause of intolerance, that doesn't mean I have to accept or, by lack of action, passively support it. The understanding should be used to combat it.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fredbob wrote: |
| I cannot and will not tolerate intolerance. |
How very intolerant of you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I read a piece not long ago about the Brits living in Manhattan and how they gather to whine about the locals. From what I can tell, culture shock is a universal experience of expats. (Yes, I know some people deny it, but that's called denial.) |
It is true, I won't dispute it, that culture shock is involved, but I still think that some simply expect to find Toronto when they come here, and they are influenced by multi-culturalism. I am sure you know the types that if someone says something politically incorrect the person gets all upset, and you don't hear the end of it and talks about the other party is primitive, and, they, of course, are advanced. Granted, Korea is not a tolerant society, and there are things to complain about, but we can't expect Korea to be a copy of Manhattan or Toronto and some other countries are closer culturally to what would be the norm to us.
However, in many cases they were former colonies of the West and/or closer geographically. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some interesting points.
I've also found that the self-proclaimed 'most tolerant' have the HARDEST time adjusting to Korea or ANYWHERE really. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I like to bitch about Korea in general, but I actually know very few people here who I would call "typical Korean". Most Koreans I know are polite, self-deprecating and intellectually curious. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| What would be some of the differences between liberal and conservative intolerance or slamming of Korea? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ED209 wrote: |
| What would be some of the differences between liberal and conservative intolerance or slamming of Korea? |
That's a good question, and it is very hard to tackle. Conservatives generally expect another culture to be more different, they are not as taken in by PC type thinking, though conservatives with a small c will embrace some form of liberal thinking. I am a centrist, so I am conservative in some ways and liberal in other ways. I am not shocked as much as to how different Korea is, though sometimes the place feels like the twilight zone. Also, some strident liberals would be more shocked by the differences. Conservatives might be more cautious when dealing with another culture or dating someone from another culture. I think I am that way or if they do, they take their time.
I find that some liberals are intolerant of intolerance, and there is a lot of intolerance in Korea. Many people have legitimate gripes about many things that go wrong, and I very much understand people loathing many things here, but many people who consider themselves very open-minded and liberal slam Korea so heavily. We are not part of this culture.
We know that. Yet, we assume that if certain Koreans spit since they look similar, then that's the culture of the majority of men including the upper middle class Koreans.
Again, I am just having philosophical discussion. Some Conservative types who are too conservative don't tolerate Korea much.
The idea is to be a liberal with some conservative elements. I could be wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Live and let live? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Adventurer wrote: |
| ED209 wrote: |
| What would be some of the differences between liberal and conservative intolerance or slamming of Korea? |
That's a good question, and it is very hard to tackle. Conservatives generally expect another culture to be more different, they are not as taken in by PC type thinking, though conservatives with a small c will embrace some form of liberal thinking. I am a centrist, so I am conservative in some ways and liberal in other ways. I am not shocked as much as to how different Korea is, though sometimes the place feels like the twilight zone. Also, some strident liberals would be more shocked by the differences. Conservatives might be more cautious when dealing with another culture or dating someone from another culture. I think I am that way or if they do, they take their time.
I find that some liberals are intolerant of intolerance, and there is a lot of intolerance in Korea. Many people have legitimate gripes about many things that go wrong, and I very much understand people loathing many things here, but many people who consider themselves very open-minded and liberal slam Korea so heavily. We are not part of this culture.
We know that. Yet, we assume that if certain Koreans spit since they look similar, then that's the culture of the majority of men including the upper middle class Koreans.
Again, I am just having philosophical discussion. Some Conservative types who are too conservative don't tolerate Korea much.
The idea is to be a liberal with some conservative elements. I could be wrong. |
Liberals here are put off by the same things they gripe about in our culture - accpeptence of gays, treatment of women, etc...The overwhelmingly white male population which is at complete liberty to openly use sexual and ethnic slurs that are PC taboo in our own countries.
There are some contradictions though. Back home they embrace multiculturalism while denying that perhaps some of the things Koreans believe and do are just as valid to them as are trasitions are to us. They talk about respecting other cultures but like everybody else seem to not practice what they preach when it doesn't fall in line with their own PC dogma. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| xingyiman wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| ED209 wrote: |
| What would be some of the differences between liberal and conservative intolerance or slamming of Korea? |
That's a good question, and it is very hard to tackle. Conservatives generally expect another culture to be more different, they are not as taken in by PC type thinking, though conservatives with a small c will embrace some form of liberal thinking. I am a centrist, so I am conservative in some ways and liberal in other ways. I am not shocked as much as to how different Korea is, though sometimes the place feels like the twilight zone. Also, some strident liberals would be more shocked by the differences. Conservatives might be more cautious when dealing with another culture or dating someone from another culture. I think I am that way or if they do, they take their time.
I find that some liberals are intolerant of intolerance, and there is a lot of intolerance in Korea. Many people have legitimate gripes about many things that go wrong, and I very much understand people loathing many things here, but many people who consider themselves very open-minded and liberal slam Korea so heavily. We are not part of this culture.
We know that. Yet, we assume that if certain Koreans spit since they look similar, then that's the culture of the majority of men including the upper middle class Koreans.
Again, I am just having philosophical discussion. Some Conservative types who are too conservative don't tolerate Korea much.
The idea is to be a liberal with some conservative elements. I could be wrong. |
Liberals here are put off by the same things they gripe about in our culture - accpeptence of gays, treatment of women, etc...The overwhelmingly white male population which is at complete liberty to openly use sexual and ethnic slurs that are PC taboo in our own countries.
There are some contradictions though. Back home they embrace multiculturalism while denying that perhaps some of the things Koreans believe and do are just as valid to them as are trasitions are to us. They talk about respecting other cultures but like everybody else seem to not practice what they preach when it doesn't fall in line with their own PC dogma. |
I think you have a point there. Of course, I want to be fair. Some conservatives who are very conservative would have a hard time with Korea as well, so it's not one side of the spectrum. I am somewhat liberal, but the Conservatives don't claim to be progressive. It's in our camp where we have people who claim to be tolerant, and they should examine that.
I just find that some Liberals who view themselves to be open should consider how they deal with a culture like this one which is very, very, very different from our own. It's a country that is very tribal and conformist in many ways, but it does have plenty of variety for one who can see. I can definitely understand those who are disgusted with Korea if they get exploited, and there are many things to despise over here. I mean some people get cheated by bosses and the government enables that behavior, so they violate the principles of Buddhism and Christianity in such a blatant way and the government aids them with that. I did have some friends who were born again Christians who didn't fancy Korea.
They tried to be open-minded about the country, but they had problems with their boss who claimed to be Christian but were unfair to them sometimes, and they said they encountered so many prejudiced looks.
I don't know. I haven't felt that, personally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
