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Terror suspects are waging 'lawfare' on U.S.

 
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Terror suspects are waging 'lawfare' on U.S. Reply with quote

Terror suspects are waging 'lawfare' on U.S.

John Yoo
> is a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute

> Walk down Broad Street and you pass by a brown mansion, squeezed in between a music store and a Banana Republic. With its statues of proud soldiers in front, the Union League stands as a symbol of the sacrifices necessary to win the Civil War.

> After being sued by convicted terrorist Jose Padilla, I wonder whether our nation today has the same unity and tenacity to defeat the great security challenge of our day, the rise of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism. Even as our brave young soldiers fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, and our intelligence agents succeed in disrupting follow-ups to the 9

11 attacks, terrorists are using our own legal system as a weapon against us.
> They use cases such as Padilla's to harass the men and women in our government, force the revelation of valuable intelligence and press novel theories that have failed at the ballot box and before the president and Congress.

> "Lawfare" has become another dimension of warfare.

> Padilla is no innocent. Last summer a Miami jury convicted him of participating in an al-Qaeda support cell in the United States. Prosecutors now are asking the court to sentence Padilla to life in prison. The conviction did not even address his detention in 2002 at Chicago's O'Hare Airport on allegations that he had returned from Afghanistan to carry out a "dirty" bomb attack on a major U.S. city. According to the Bush administration at the time, Padilla had received the green light from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the planner of the 9

11 attacks.
> At the time, I was an official in the Bush administration Justice Department working on the response to the 9

11 attacks. Our lives had taken very different paths. Padilla had turned to drugs and crime in Chicago and was convicted of murder as a juvenile. He became a radical follower of fundamentalist Islam, left for Egypt in 1998 and journeyed in 2000 to Afghanistan, where he trained to become a terrorist at al-Qaeda and Taliban camps.
> I had the good fortune to grow up in the Philadelphia area, attend the Episcopal Academy for high school, and go off to Harvard for college and Yale for law school. I studied and eventually taught war powers, a subject that always interested me because of Philadelphia's rich history with the Revolutionary and Civil Wars and my family's origins in South Korea, the scene of one of America's more recent conflicts.

> I worked on the legality of the decision to place Padilla in the hands of military authorities in June 2002. The 9

11 attacks on our nation's capital and financial center, and the loss of 3,000 American lives, placed the United States at war with al-Qaeda, a fact that Padilla's lawyers do not accept. They have always asserted that Padilla could be considered only a criminal defendant and must enjoy the benefits of the civilian criminal-justice system.
> They are wrong. Both the president and Congress have agreed that the United States is at war, and Congress passed an authorization for using force against any groups, nations or people responsible for the 9

11 attacks. Capturing prisoners has been a permanent feature of war throughout human history; hundreds of thousands were detained during World War II alone. Sometimes, unfortunately, the enemy has included U.S. citizens - in the Civil War, every Confederate soldier was a citizen, and in World War II some Americans fought in the Axis armed forces. They never had a right to sue the soldiers who caught them.
> We are in a difficult war against an unprecedented enemy. Its members deliberately disguise themselves as civilians and carry out surprise attacks on innocent civilian targets. They do not have a territory, city or population. They are trained to claim abuse when captured and to appeal to the legal system to tie up democracies in knots.

> It is a difficult job for our government and armed forces to adapt the rules for war to such an unconventional, non-state opponent.

> But Padilla and his Yale Law School attorneys think that these decisions are better second-guessed by plaintiffs' lawyers and judges rather than our elected leaders. They challenged Padilla's detention and lost in the federal Court of Appeals in South Carolina, before the government sent him to Miami for prosecution.

> Think about what it would mean if Padilla were to win. Government officials and military personnel have to devise better ways to protect the country from more deadly surprise attacks. Padilla and his lawyers want them, from the president down to lowest private, to worry about being sued when they make their decisions. Officials will worry about all of the attorneys' fees they will rack up to defend themselves from groundless lawsuits.

> My situation is better than most, since I am a lawyer with many lawyer friends (that is not the oxymoron it seems). I can fend for myself; fine attorneys have volunteered to represent me, and the government may defend me. But what about the soldiers, agents and officers who have to respond to the next 9

11 or foreign threat? They will have to worry about personal liability, hiring lawyers.
> Would we have wanted President Abraham Lincoln to worry about his personal liability for issuing the Emancipation Proclamation freeing the slaves (done on his sole authority as commander-in-chief)?

> If so, then we will have a government that will avoid any and all risks, shun making any move that is not an exact repetition of locked-in procedure of 20th-century vintage, and keep plodding along the same path regardless of contemporary circumstances. These are exactly the conditions that make a nation susceptible to a surprise attack, whether a Pearl Harbor or a 9

11.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Yoo, a former Bush administration Justice Department official, is the author of "War by Other Means."

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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'lawfare' is exactly the right weapon to use against an administration that has not been faithful to the traditional values of American society. It's too bad people have to resort to the courts to right the wrongs, but the courts are exactly the mechanism provided for in the system we have developed over the centuries of Western Civilization. Yes, it's slow, expensive and not always perfect, but it is the right direction to go.
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mistermasan



Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john yoo? "the" john yoo? the man whose argument that torture is legal has reaped us so many benefits?
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Czarjorge



Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes It's too bad there's no 'lowered eyes sadly shaking head' emoticon.

Isn't habeas corpus still suspended for citizens if the government so chooses?

For an administration that flounts, and the name drops, the rule of law on a weekly basis it only makes sense that the law is the way to fight back. Why hasn't Bush been impeached yet?
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many of the world top terror network "suspects" serve as heads of state.

*shrug*

None dare call it conspiracy.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not terror to fight against the Bathist the Khomeni followers or the Al Qaedists.

and of course the US justice system is not up to dealing w/ Al Qaeda
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
and of course the US justice system is not up to dealing w/ Al Qaeda


The U.S. justice system is enshrined in our Constitution. I am always worried about people like you who are eager to change it on the basis of perceived threats.

The U.S. justice system is not meant to deal with foreigners outside the U.S., so of course it is not up to dealing with Al Qaeda. On the other hand, if an Al Qaeda member commits a crime in the U.S., the justice system is perfectly capable of dealing with him. Look at that idiot "U.S. Taliban", for example.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogbert wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
and of course the US justice system is not up to dealing w/ Al Qaeda


The U.S. justice system is enshrined in our Constitution. I am always worried about people like you who are eager to change it on the basis of perceived threats.

The U.S. justice system is not meant to deal with foreigners outside the U.S., so of course it is not up to dealing with Al Qaeda. On the other hand, if an Al Qaeda member commits a crime in the U.S., the justice system is perfectly capable of dealing with him. Look at that idiot "U.S. Taliban", for example.


9-11 perceived threat?

The few terror trials that have already been done were a huge strain on the US justice system.

A few hundred of them would break the US system.

It was the opinion of the Clinton administration that they did not have enough evidence to convict Bin Laden in a US court. So he was allowed to go to Afghanistan.
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
dogbert wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
and of course the US justice system is not up to dealing w/ Al Qaeda


The U.S. justice system is enshrined in our Constitution. I am always worried about people like you who are eager to change it on the basis of perceived threats.

The U.S. justice system is not meant to deal with foreigners outside the U.S., so of course it is not up to dealing with Al Qaeda. On the other hand, if an Al Qaeda member commits a crime in the U.S., the justice system is perfectly capable of dealing with him. Look at that idiot "U.S. Taliban", for example.


9-11 perceived threat?

The few terror trials that have already been done were a huge strain on the US justice system.

A few hundred of them would break the US system.

It was the opinion of the Clinton administration that they did not have enough evidence to convict Bin Laden in a US court. So he was allowed to go to Afghanistan.


9/11 constitutes a military threat. The proper response is for our military is to slaughter those responsible overseas, not torture them in Romania, nor lock them in Cuba pending phony show trials.

You don't know enough about the legal system to understand what would "break" it or not.

Was Clinton president in Sept. 2001?

Should FDR have attempted to have Hitler or Stalin extradited to the U.S. to stand trial in the 30s?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

["dogbert"][q
Quote:

9/11 constitutes a military threat. The proper response is for our military is to slaughter those responsible overseas, not torture them in Romania, nor lock them in Cuba pending phony show trials.


Well then you are saying just kill them before they get to trial, or ought the US let them go.


Quote:

You don't know enough about the legal system to understand what would "break" it or not.



How much does it cost to put each terror suspect away? Include the cost of increased security.

Also now consider the US must make public it sources and ways of collection methods.
Quote:

Was Clinton president in Sept. 2001?


No , but it was his opinion that there was not enough evidence to convict Bin Laden in 1996.

What is your point?
Quote:

Should FDR have attempted to have Hitler or Stalin extradited to the U.S. to stand trial in the 30s?


Yes but it wouldn't have worked.

But Bin Laden was already involved in planning and funding attacks against the US in 1996.
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
["dogbert"][q
Quote:

9/11 constitutes a military threat. The proper response is for our military is to slaughter those responsible overseas, not torture them in Romania, nor lock them in Cuba pending phony show trials.


Well then you are saying just kill them before they get to trial, or ought the US let them go.


It's a war, isn't it? Did we put Japanese soldiers on trial in WWII or did we kill them?


Quote:

You don't know enough about the legal system to understand what would "break" it or not.



JRGR wrote:
How much does it cost to put each terror suspect away? Include the cost of increased security.


The costs of enforcing the law (which includes court costs) are what they are, whether the objects of enforcement are terrorists or not.

You don't subvert the Constitutionally-enshrined legal system in order to save a few shekels.

Do you think Tim McVeigh shouldn't have been tried? The legal system worked OK then, didn't it?

Quote:
Also now consider the US must make public it sources and ways of collection methods.


So, the mafia knows the FBI wiretaps their phone calls.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="dogbert"][

Quote:
It's a war, isn't it? Did we put Japanese soldiers on trial in WWII or did we kill them?


I don't know what you are advocating.

But Japanese soldiers didn't always have a choice.

No one is forced to be Al Qaeda.




Quote:
The costs of enforcing the law (which includes court costs) are what they are, whether the objects of enforcement are terrorists or not.


then the US can't do it. It is not only legal it is also national security.

Quote:
You don't subvert the Constitutionally-enshrined legal system in order to save a few shekels.


Not only to save money. It is too protect security. Besides the US ought to worry about winning.

The consitution had slavery it is not the answer for every problem.

Quote:
Do you think Tim McVeigh shouldn't have been tried? The legal system worked OK then, didn't it?


If there were 70,000 far better armed?




Quote:
So, the mafia knows the FBI wiretaps their phone calls.



Bin Laden found out the US could listen into his cell phone so he stopped using it. Perhaps if that info was not out there the US would have been able to stop some or more of AQ's attacks.
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