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Study: Afghanistan Could Fail As A State

 
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Study: Afghanistan Could Fail As A State Reply with quote

Study: Afghanistan Could Fail As A State
By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Afghanistan risks sliding into a failed state and becoming the "forgotten war" because of deteriorating international support and a growing violent insurgency, according to an independent study.

The assessment, co-chaired by retired Marine Corps Gen. James Jones and former U.N. Ambassador Thomas Pickering, serves as a warning to the Bush administration at a time military and congressional officials are debating how best to juggle stretched warfighting resources.

MORE ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080130/ap_on_go_ot/us_afghanistan_11
;_ylt=AlsxwpCoe8GHkVbPokznknr9xg8F


Last edited by igotthisguitar on Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Could fail"? The NATO troops are unable to leave their base it is so violent. It has failed as a state.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bush Ignores Afghan School Violence
By JASON STRAZIUSO, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jan 29, 4:29 PM ET

KABUL, Afghanistan - In his State of the Union address, President Bush called Afghanistan a young democracy where children go to school and Afghans are hopeful. But he didn't mention the violence that has killed 147 students and teachers, and closed 590 schools in the last year � almost as many as the 680 the U.S. has built.

Bush's rosy outlook for a country that once hosted al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden didn't contain any falsehoods. New roads and hospitals are being built, just as he told the nation Monday night.

Boys and girls are going to school in record numbers. Some 5.8 million students, including 2 million girls, are now in class, compared with less than a million under the Taliban.

But some here might say Bush glossed over the bad news. Last year saw a record level of violence, and military leaders and analysts expect the suicide bombings, clashes and kidnappings to increase in 2008.

MORE ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080129/ap_on_re_as/afghan_schools
;_ylt=As8BLVFjQYQl7YhWM59ea2u9IxIF
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blair Urges Canada Not To Flinch & Maintain Its Support Of A Noble Cause
Thu Jan 17, 9:12 PM
By Maria Babbage, The Canadian Press

TORONTO - Canada must not flinch when faced with the deaths of its soldiers in Afghanistan, but should meet such attacks with equal or even greater determination to "fight terrorism", former British prime minister Tony Blair urged Thursday amid renewed calls for Canada to end its military mission in the violence-plagued country.

The world has reached a "defining" moment in its history, and countries must choose a side in the battle against global terrorism, Blair told the sold-out Toronto business audience of 2,000, who paid more than $400 each to hear him speak.



Attempts by extremists to kill innocent civilians or soldiers trying to quash terrorism in other countries "can't sap our determination to succeed," he said.

"We're not going to win this battle by half-apologizing for our own existence," Blair said Shocked

Calling himself a "fan" of Canada, Blair said Canadians should be "immensely proud" of their military and what it has done in Afghanistan, calling it "as noble a cause as you can possibly imagine."

Blair's hawkish remarks come just a day after a top American official criticized NATO allies in Afghanistan, suggesting Canadian, British and Dutch troops have been ineffective in their mission.

That opinion, made by U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates in an interview this week, was echoed Thursday on the editorial pages of the influential Washington Post newspaper.

The Pentagon chief has said the remarks were not meant as a reflection on Canadian troops, but the NDP believes his comments could tip the scales of public opinion and drive Canada out of the war.

Canada's military mission could end in February 2009, although the civilian aspect, including police training, is expected to continue until 2011.

Blair, meanwhile, urged leaders to tackle the many challenges they face in the 21st century, including tougher economic conditions, immigration pressures, the rise of China as a global power, and energy and environmental concerns.

The challenge posed by terrorism is deep and its roots go further than we think, he said. But the fight won't get any easier.

"The world is in a state of transition," Blair said. "The question is, what is the destination?"

His wide-ranging speech drew a diverse crowd from Canada's elite, including Defence Minister Peter MacKay, environmentalist David Suzuki, former prime minister John Turner and former Liberal cabinet minister John Manley, who is writing a report on the future of Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.

Outside the hotel where Blair spoke, a number of protesters gathered to voice their disapproval of his decision to support the Iraq invasion in 2003.

Inside, Blair amused the audience with anecdotes about his days in power and spoke candidly about his global predictions, including the chance for peace in the Middle East.

A rising star on the international stage, Blair is currently serving as the Middle East envoy for the so-called quartet peacemakers - the United States, Russia, the European Union and United Nations - and is rumoured to have ambitions to become the EU's first president.

But Blair was coy when asked if he would seek the new post created in the revised EU constitution.

"I'm happy doing what I'm doing," he told former U.S. ambassador and ex-New Brunswick premier Frank McKenna, who grilled Blair during a sit-down talk following his speech.

"It's a long way off."

He also weighed in on the situations in Pakistan and Iraq, saying he believes Iraq will remain intact.

The former Labour Party leader, who left British politics about six months ago after a decade as prime minister, admitted his friends thought he was "crazy" to take on his current job in the Middle East.

Calling the situation in Lebanon a "tragedy," Blair urged global leaders to help resolve the conflict in the region, which he considers to be of "vital importance" to the world.

Ordinary Palestinians and Israelis do want peace, but "the trouble is getting there," he said.

Arab countries have "played the cause" in the past, but are more focused on Iran now, he added.

Blair also acknowledged some similarities between the situation in Israel and the conflict in Northern Ireland, which he helped resolve through peace negotiations.

He recalled that the worst atrocities in the Irish conflict came after the Good Friday agreement was signed.

Blair said he "knew" that was the point where things would either fall apart or get better.

"We have to be prepared to get up and fight for our values as though they are at risk ... because they are," he said.

"This is a fight that we're in. ... We've got to keep at it until we win."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080117/national/blair_speech
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yetanotherSarah



Joined: 09 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean tribal peoples are unable to make a nation state work? How could it be so? Rolling Eyes
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pesawattahi



Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: it rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah its not that bad, all they need is infrastructure rather than the feel good things like schools, hospitals, and womens rights centers that are almost required by the press. A port would be nice too but since that is not possible a rail link to Karachi or some other such port would do much to improve that place.
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agentX



Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't so much that they are tribal. It's more along the lines that
a) Afghanistan never really was a "nation-state" to begin with
b) There's a little too much outside interference
c) They didn't really choose their leadership- it was kind of foisted unto them by the West.
d) You can't rebuilt a nation that's still coming apart. It's like fixing a TV while it's still plugged in the wall.
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yetanotherSarah



Joined: 09 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agentX wrote:
It isn't so much that they are tribal. It's more along the lines that
a) Afghanistan never really was a "nation-state" to begin with
b) There's a little too much outside interference
c) They didn't really choose their leadership- it was kind of foisted unto them by the West.
d) You can't rebuilt a nation that's still coming apart. It's like fixing a TV while it's still plugged in the wall.


No country was ever a nation state to begin with. We were all tribal people once, democracy is acquired (obviously not through occupation) political system. The leadership that they do 'choose' (at least on the complicit, collective, community level) tends to mullahs and war lords, hence tribalism. These people are collectivist, they are not going to easily adapt to an individualist system of governance.
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yetanotherSarah



Joined: 09 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pesawattahi wrote:
Bah its not that bad, all they need is infrastructure rather than the feel good things like schools, hospitals, and womens rights centers that are almost required by the press. A port would be nice too but since that is not possible a rail link to Karachi or some other such port would do much to improve that place.


So putting in more transport infrastructure in order to rob the country of the few natural resources it has is going to make it a strong nation?
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few natural resources = OPIUM
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agentX



Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yetanotherSarah wrote:
agentX wrote:
It isn't so much that they are tribal. It's more along the lines that
a) Afghanistan never really was a "nation-state" to begin with
b) There's a little too much outside interference
c) They didn't really choose their leadership- it was kind of foisted unto them by the West.
d) You can't rebuilt a nation that's still coming apart. It's like fixing a TV while it's still plugged in the wall.


No country was ever a nation state to begin with. We were all tribal people once, democracy is acquired (obviously not through occupation) political system. The leadership that they do 'choose' (at least on the complicit, collective, community level) tends to mullahs and war lords, hence tribalism. These people are collectivist, they are not going to easily adapt to an individualist system of governance.


That's not quite what I meant.
Unlike say France, the UK or even Barbados, Afghanistan did not form according to the will of the people living there. It was more or less cobbled together by competing world powers. In other words, it's a colonial era construction and not a nation that formed on its own. There's no national identity or shared history, unless you wanna count the mujahadeen...
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thepeel wrote:
"Could fail?"


Precisely. And when was "Afghanistan" ever a viable nation-state -- in the post-1500s or modern sense of the concept?
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pesawattahi



Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Location: it rubs the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So putting in more transport infrastructure in order to rob the country of the few natural resources it has is going to make it a strong nation?


Have you ever noticed the more isolated a place is the poorer it is? One of the main reasons there was never a huge uprising in Afghanistan like there was in Iraq is because the Afghans are dirt poor and know it. They want a better life and would love nothing more than selling whatever resources they have. The main reasons why they grow sell opium are 1. It makes more money than anything else they can do and 2. It takes very little in the way of infratructure to transport it unlike say iron.

The farming there is not great if you had an acre would you plant wheat which would be worth maybe a hundred dollars or would you plant opium which could be worth a few thousand dollars? If I was an Aghani I would plant opium and feed my family.

If we built the infrastructure instead of little stupid money wasting projects industry and business will follow.

Oh I hope you didn't pay too much for that sociology class because it seems that you wasted your money.
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yetanotherSarah



Joined: 09 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

igotthisguitar wrote:
Few natural resources = OPIUM


Well, I was thinking natural gas. But hell, there is a massive world shortage of painkillers so why not buy their opium and leave them alone?

And I have never taken sociology.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yetanotherSarah wrote:
igotthisguitar wrote:
Few natural resources = OPIUM


Well, I was thinking natural gas.

But hell, there is a massive world shortage of painkillers so why not buy their opium and leave them alone?

And I have never taken sociology.


Duh, because the elite lords of war would rather STEAL than ever have to "pay" for it ...
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