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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: pda's in the classroom? |
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ok, this to me is just a bit 'over the top' - I'm working on a special curriculum program and we're in the discussion stages of designing a program where the kids will be using pdas - that' s personal digital assistants, i.e, blackberries, to do their hwk, extra tutorials, maybe even tests.
this would start with 5th graders.
other than the obvious issue that I don't think throwing money and technology at students is going to make them any smarter - there is another, darker side to this. the suggestion has been made that when students are away from the classroom, as in on the bus, or on break (?), or wherever, they can just access their E thru their little pda and work some more!
like they don't have enough to do already!! and I said exactly that! when are they supposed to talk with their friends, or have a little fun? no, never, I suppose, if they aren't in the classroom, they are supposed to be glued to this little pda device so they are essentially tied 24/7 to their lessons.
am I the only one envisioning a problem with this?
I can just see the headlines now - parents dead, mysteriously killed with pda stuffed down the throat of mother, father killed by blunt instrument, maybe from pda slammed into skull before choking mother with it. child missing but believed to be involved.
I'm sorry, I just think K kids study too much, that's all. and I don't think it really does them any good. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Korean kids study as much as they have to/want to. If they don't want to use the PDA on the bus, they won't.
Also, Korean kids don't know HOW to study. They know how to memorize and spit out. Actual studying to LEARN? They don't have a clue. Reading for meaning? Self-monitoring while reading? WHOOSH. Over their heads. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Atavistic wrote: |
Korean kids study as much as they have to/want to. If they don't want to use the PDA on the bus, they won't.
Also, Korean kids don't know HOW to study. They know how to memorize and spit out. Actual studying to LEARN? They don't have a clue. Reading for meaning? Self-monitoring while reading? WHOOSH. Over their heads. |
other than restating the obvious, why do you suppose this is? |
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Netz
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Location: a parallel universe where people and places seem to be the exact opposite of "normal"
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| Atavistic wrote: |
Korean kids study as much as they have to/want to. If they don't want to use the PDA on the bus, they won't.
Also, Korean kids don't know HOW to study. They know how to memorize and spit out. Actual studying to LEARN? They don't have a clue. Reading for meaning? Self-monitoring while reading? WHOOSH. Over their heads. |
other than restating the obvious, why do you suppose this is? |
Monkey see, monkey do.
We're still waiting for the 100th monkey to knock it the $%@ off. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Netz wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| Atavistic wrote: |
Korean kids study as much as they have to/want to. If they don't want to use the PDA on the bus, they won't.
Also, Korean kids don't know HOW to study. They know how to memorize and spit out. Actual studying to LEARN? They don't have a clue. Reading for meaning? Self-monitoring while reading? WHOOSH. Over their heads. |
other than restating the obvious, why do you suppose this is? |
Monkey see, monkey do.
We're still waiting for the 100th monkey to knock it the $%@ off. |
good chuckle - but seriously - why do you suppose this is? |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| Netz wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| Atavistic wrote: |
Korean kids study as much as they have to/want to. If they don't want to use the PDA on the bus, they won't.
Also, Korean kids don't know HOW to study. They know how to memorize and spit out. Actual studying to LEARN? They don't have a clue. Reading for meaning? Self-monitoring while reading? WHOOSH. Over their heads. |
other than restating the obvious, why do you suppose this is? |
Monkey see, monkey do.
We're still waiting for the 100th monkey to knock it the $%@ off. |
good chuckle - but seriously - why do you suppose this is? |
I'm guessing you mean why don't they know how to study?
Because it's Korean culture. You fit in your place and follow directions until you're old and in charge. Because you don't question authority.
Because it's the way they are taught to think. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Giving kids anything to play with in class is never a great idea. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Atavistic wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| Netz wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| Atavistic wrote: |
Korean kids study as much as they have to/want to. If they don't want to use the PDA on the bus, they won't.
Also, Korean kids don't know HOW to study. They know how to memorize and spit out. Actual studying to LEARN? They don't have a clue. Reading for meaning? Self-monitoring while reading? WHOOSH. Over their heads. |
other than restating the obvious, why do you suppose this is? |
Monkey see, monkey do.
We're still waiting for the 100th monkey to knock it the $%@ off. |
good chuckle - but seriously - why do you suppose this is? |
I'm guessing you mean why don't they know how to study?
Because it's Korean culture. You fit in your place and follow directions until you're old and in charge. Because you don't question authority.
Because it's the way they are taught to think. |
I'm not sure I was every "taught" to study either - but neither was I taught to memorize text so the end result is I don't have the memorizing skills I see many others do - any analytical skills I have I credit to the excellent program I was in at univ - not anything prior to that.
as for K not questioning authority - that's bull - they have maybe 8 political parties? sorry, am not sure - but I do know it's more than the U.S. which only has 2 major ones and then the independents, lurking in the shadows and a couple of others playing catch-up -
in the workplace, yes, K defer to their bosses but they DO question authority, politically speaking the Ks are quite involved in K politics and whether we like to acknowledge it or not, it's a highly literate society
I find it fascinating to walk thru a dept store and when I come to the book dept there are children on the floors reading books instead of hanging around the toys or something else. I've never seen anything like that in the west. but it's always young ones - not older ones.
I think the little ones love to read - but what happens later that they lose that love of reading? forget how to study, how to learn?
is it really the culture? what ages do you think this starts to happen?
IMO, it's not the culture, it's too much time going to hakwons and not enough quality time at home or interacting w/friends.
Last edited by moosehead on Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Giving kids anything to play with in class is never a great idea. |
and don't even get me started talking about pencil cases w/built in games  |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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My favourite hobby is confiscating electronic devices from K-kids. To actually contemplate giving them something with which to play games and text each other in class is just plain dumb!  |
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Biblethumper
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Busan, Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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I do not mind pencil cases with games, cellphones, toys or whatever: because when I teach I just make the children clear absolutely everything off their tables and concentrate on the discussion at hand: they hardly ever write in class: that is for homework.
And I arrange the tables in an open semi-circle, so I plunge into the midst and immediately grab any distracting object (which some of them are foolish enough to play with in their lap unde rthe table). |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Giving kids anything to play with in class is never a great idea. |
and don't even get me started talking about pencil cases w/built in games |
What kind of insane parent pays hundreds of dollars a month to send their kid to hagwon and then sends them load down with every possible distraction in the book? "Oh yes, take your cell phone, your nintendo ds, you game pencil case, your 98 color pencils to school and play with them all night!" |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| What kind of insane parent pays hundreds of dollars a month to send their kid to hagwon and then sends them load down with every possible distraction in the book? |
we all know the answer, after all, TIK
the manufacturers of the electronic dictionaries also put games in those - I used to think my students were busy looking up words only to discover they were playing games in class!!
and this pda program would allow them to access the internet !!
yeah, uh huh, this is gonna work. well, I'm trying my best to point out certain fallacies and so far, it's like talking to a wall.
a lot of parents seem to think throwing money at a problem makes it better - it's the same everywhere, really it is, if one student gets something, all the others have to - we used to call it "keeping up with the Joneses" in the U.S. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| the manufacturers of the electronic dictionaries also put games in those - I used to think my students were busy looking up words only to discover they were playing games in class!! |
Yeah I was fooled by that too. At least your kids are equipped with some kind of dictionary. I had a class where it was all about dictionary work. I find my kids know three verbs (eat, kill, play ... roughly in that order) after 5 years of english study and are hard pressed to remember a single verb they studied the class before with the Korean teacher. It's like they have no clue the words they used in the class before can be used outside of that class. Hell, I've had kids trying to "secretly" study for a word test in my class. When it came their turn to supply a new verb for their answer they were at a total loss. I then notice a paper in front of them. It's their word list for the next class's test. I look at the world list. All these english words. Many of the matching korean ends in "da". Oh gosh. Verbs. Lots of verbs in front of them they are supposedly trying to commit to memory and they have zero, zero clue they can actually use one of those verbs in my class.
Kid. Hungry. Glass case. Donuts under glass. Hammer next to glass case. Now how you gonna get those donuts? These kids would be lost and starve to death waiting for someone to tell them specifically "hammers can break glass".
Anyway, the idea was we were going to really drill for two months in verbs. Looking up words is a useful way of remember them as well. I would present them with a list of english verbs, they would look up the words in the dictionary, write them down on their hand out, and then write simple SVO sentences.
By about the half way point in the mini semester, only about half the kids had dictionaries. Some who managed to acquire a dictionary by the half way mark couldn't figure out you needed an English to Korean dictionary and brought in Korean to English dictionaries.
And the ones who managed to get the correct dictionary and remembered to pack it each day (along with their busha busha, stickers, pencil case loaded with 94 markets but apparently never a mechanical pencil that works for more than 3 minutes, nintendo...) and actually knew how to use a dictionary, well, they could look up and write down the verbs okay. Then came the S O part of the problem. Apparently they were unaware their dictionary also contained a range of highly novel nouns they could employ.
And then lets not even get into the mystery of why third person present tense needs an S. I eat. He eats. 5 years of english and no Korean teacher has ever managed to impress them with the importance of this rule. And it's like articles are a novel revelation to them. I studied Korean for a year. I knew more than 3 verbs.
Stunning. Utterly stunning. After 3 years of teaching I thought I had seen it all. But I was wrong. Korean kids know how to get a TRG in 3 days flat on Sudden Attack but are lost when it comes to basic, basic skills like looking up words in a fkin' dictionary. And that parents will shell out hundreds of bucks for textbooks with pretty blond children on the cover but never think to buy their kids a $10 dictionary, even when the class SPECIFICALLY REQUIRES IT, well, I'm lost for words.
Korean spend more than any other nation on English and have the worst english. And they all scratch their heads and wonder why. What's the solution? Cosmetic surgery? Drug tests for foreign teachers? More foreign teachers in the class? More Korean teachers with training abroad? Jesus rogering a leather bear, teach your kids the most basic skills, let them have real play time so when they're in classrooms they're paying attention. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| the manufacturers of the electronic dictionaries also put games in those - I used to think my students were busy looking up words only to discover they were playing games in class!! |
Yeah I was fooled by that too. At least your kids are equipped with some kind of dictionary. I had a class where it was all about dictionary work. I find my kids know three verbs (eat, kill, play ... roughly in that order) after 5 years of english study and are hard pressed to remember a single verb they studied the class before with the Korean teacher. It's like they have no clue the words they used in the class before can be used outside of that class. Hell, I've had kids trying to "secretly" study for a word test in my class. When it came their turn to supply a new verb for their answer they were at a total loss. I then notice a paper in front of them. It's their word list for the next class's test. I look at the world list. All these english words. Many of the matching korean ends in "da". Oh gosh. Verbs. Lots of verbs in front of them they are supposedly trying to commit to memory and they have zero, zero clue they can actually use one of those verbs in my class.
Kid. Hungry. Glass case. Donuts under glass. Hammer next to glass case. Now how you gonna get those donuts? These kids would be lost and starve to death waiting for someone to tell them specifically "hammers can break glass".
Anyway, the idea was we were going to really drill for two months in verbs. Looking up words is a useful way of remember them as well. I would present them with a list of english verbs, they would look up the words in the dictionary, write them down on their hand out, and then write simple SVO sentences.
By about the half way point in the mini semester, only about half the kids had dictionaries. Some who managed to acquire a dictionary by the half way mark couldn't figure out you needed an English to Korean dictionary and brought in Korean to English dictionaries.
And the ones who managed to get the correct dictionary and remembered to pack it each day (along with their busha busha, stickers, pencil case loaded with 94 markets but apparently never a mechanical pencil that works for more than 3 minutes, nintendo...) and actually knew how to use a dictionary, well, they could look up and write down the verbs okay. Then came the S O part of the problem. Apparently they were unaware their dictionary also contained a range of highly novel nouns they could employ.
And then lets not even get into the mystery of why third person present tense needs an S. I eat. He eats. 5 years of english and no Korean teacher has ever managed to impress them with the importance of this rule. And it's like articles are a novel revelation to them. I studied Korean for a year. I knew more than 3 verbs.
Stunning. Utterly stunning. After 3 years of teaching I thought I had seen it all. But I was wrong. Korean kids know how to get a TRG in 3 days flat on Sudden Attack but are lost when it comes to basic, basic skills like looking up words in a fkin' dictionary. And that parents will shell out hundreds of bucks for textbooks with pretty blond children on the cover but never think to buy their kids a $10 dictionary, even when the class SPECIFICALLY REQUIRES IT, well, I'm lost for words.
Korean spend more than any other nation on English and have the worst english. And they all scratch their heads and wonder why. What's the solution? Cosmetic surgery? Drug tests for foreign teachers? More foreign teachers in the class? More Korean teachers with training abroad? Jesus rogering a leather bear, teach your kids the most basic skills, let them have real play time so when they're in classrooms they're paying attention. |
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comments - while no doubt it was cathartic for you to release your frustration - please be assured there are some Ks who are listening and desparate to change things. And it's not just where I'm working - I have K friends outside of Seoul, one who runs a hakwon - who listens to virtually everything I tell her, including the kinds of comments teachers like you post. In fact, these Ks want to hear more of this kind of input - yes, really, I kid you not -
just as in the West it's sometimes necessary to wade thru a cesspool of hype and nonsense to get some real answers, for example, regarding political candidates - so it is just as difficult for the Ks who really do give a d*mn about education to find the kind of honest and forthright info they KNOW is out there - but have extreme difficulty finding it.
part of the problem is the Ks who spread disinformation, part of it is the Ks who don't give a real hoot about E other than for economic reasons, part of it is the xenophobia in this country.
but another part of it is FTs who don't take the time, or make the effort, or have the backbone, to really try and communicate the problems, one at a time (not just say - your way sucks ours is better)
I know often times our efforts are not immediately recognized, or appreciated, and of course that's why so many people often leave the teaching profession, but at this point in time, I hope you understand, your efforts are worth it and appreciated.
thanks to all of you who responded to this topic and the one about graphic organizers. I assure you, you are being heard. |
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