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Cognorati
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: Daegu (Taegu) Fire Incident?! |
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| Consider Korea's stand and watch mentality; the Daegu subway fire video for example. A subway full of people stood by and watched a man light a fire in a subway car which led to the death of hundreds. Now if levels of violence should (god forbid) increase to levels experienced in the west, how Koreans deal with it becomes another problem. |
Came across this post in another thread - to what incident is this referring?
How can people (apologists) justify this behavior, other then to confess that it's an example of herd mentality gone completely psychotic: so you stand by and watch someone kill not only your fellow man (your fellow Korean, which is an important distinction for the biggots out there), but you watch him kill YOU, too?
I'm mortified by this, and I'm wondering with the climate of racism in Korea, about which the UN has released a statement, if we should fear for our safety as non-Koreans?
All it would take is for some major incident (maybe a non-Korean rapist or murderer to be apprehended, etc) to intensify the racism and xenophobia, and there could be spats of racist attacks against us, particularly those of us who are the most despised (people of color, gays, those in interracial relationships, etc).
Who would defend us? Certainly not law enforcement.
Koreans would stand by and watch. |
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Zaria32
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Boy, lots of leaps in logic here... |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't here when that incident happened and have only heard bits and pieces of the story. Just for frame of reference, you might post what thread you pulled that out of.
In the past, I've heard criticisms on here about people standing around while something bad happened like domestic violence. The only thing close to that which I've personally seen is an accident where a car hit a motorbike.
Anyway, you should put it more context so people know what you are talking about. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| I'm mortified by this, |
I'm mortified by your ignorance.
Word to the wise: Go back to Mom and Dad's basement. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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TheBulimicFatGuy
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Daegu (Taegu) Fire Incident?! |
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| Cognorati wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Consider Korea's stand and watch mentality; the Daegu subway fire video for example. A subway full of people stood by and watched a man light a fire in a subway car which led to the death of hundreds. Now if levels of violence should (god forbid) increase to levels experienced in the west, how Koreans deal with it becomes another problem. |
Came across this post in another thread - to what incident is this referring?
How can people (apologists) justify this behavior, other then to confess that it's an example of herd mentality gone completely psychotic: so you stand by and watch someone kill not only your fellow man (your fellow Korean, which is an important distinction for the biggots out there), but you watch him kill YOU, too?
I'm mortified by this, and I'm wondering with the climate of racism in Korea, about which the UN has released a statement, if we should fear for our safety as non-Koreans?
All it would take is for some major incident (maybe a non-Korean rapist or murderer to be apprehended, etc) to intensify the racism and xenophobia, and there could be spats of racist attacks against us, particularly those of us who are the most despised (people of color, gays, those in interracial relationships, etc).
Who would defend us? Certainly not law enforcement.
Koreans would stand by and watch. |
I was in Daegu when the fire happened in Jungangno station a few years ago. It was truly a tragic time. Anyways, as for people not responding, I think it was just shock. People couldn't believe that someone was actually committing a terrorist act and so didn't react. I remember hearing about another similar incident, only a year or two later, in which 3 middle (or was it high school?) boys prevented a similar disaster. A couple of weeks ago, I was riding the subway and there was this guy who kept constantly lighting and flicking off his zippo lighter. I can tell you that he had pretty much everyone's attention in the car we were in. My point is that I think Daeguites are much more sensitive to the possibility of this kind of tragedy now and I doubt they would idly stand by again. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Cognorati wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Consider Korea's stand and watch mentality; the Daegu subway fire video for example. A subway full of people stood by and watched a man light a fire in a subway car which led to the death of hundreds. Now if levels of violence should (god forbid) increase to levels experienced in the west, how Koreans deal with it becomes another problem. |
Came across this post in another thread - to what incident is this referring?
How can people (apologists) justify this behavior, other then to confess that it's an example of herd mentality gone completely psychotic: so you stand by and watch someone kill not only your fellow man (your fellow Korean, which is an important distinction for the biggots out there), but you watch him kill YOU, too?
I'm mortified by this, and I'm wondering with the climate of racism in Korea, about which the UN has released a statement, if we should fear for our safety as non-Koreans?
All it would take is for some major incident (maybe a non-Korean rapist or murderer to be apprehended, etc) to intensify the racism and xenophobia, and there could be spats of racist attacks against us, particularly those of us who are the most despised (people of color, gays, those in interracial relationships, etc).
Who would defend us? Certainly not law enforcement.
Koreans would stand by and watch. |
I don't know if the OP has ever been on a subway (in any country) during AM rush hour, but its like this: People are pressed up against each other and facing exits/staring out windows. Of the people who are sitting, they are usually dozing (especially at that time of the morning). Amongst the pressed up bodies (yes, I do know the Daegu subway at that time of day between the Banwoldang and Jungangno stops, as I usually would take the subway around that time from Jungangno to an AM private I had back then, by Yeungnam University Stn.), there is some guy who walks on, hunched over a small milk carton that he was trying to start with a lighter. I'd be surprised if any more than 2 people even caught a glance at the weirdo, let alone could make out the fact that his milk carton was containing high flammable liquid and he had mass murder on his mind. 
The fire erupted so quickly after he jumped back through the closing doors that panic set in and everyone freaked and trampled each other. That kind of reaction is only indigenous to Korea? How about in front of Best Buy in the US, when they unlock the doors to let the masses in to buy PS3s. Americans are trampling each other and their lives aren't even at stake. So give Koreans a little bit of a break when they see their lives legitimately pass before their eyes.
As for the OP taking an incident involving a mentally disturbed person on a subway and stretching it so far as to encompass Korean society as a whole being on the edge and just waiting to jump the passing waygookin and slit his/her throat, how old are you??? I saw maybe 1-2 yrs old, because you obviously have never lived in a Western multicultural society long enough to see racism and bigotry being really present and from people who are not too timid to actually spill blood over someone giving a wrong look to another.
I, for one, am quite relieved that Korea does not have those bad habits of the West. Oh, poor baby, Koreans say things to you in Korean, but as it was not 'anyoung haseyo' or 'megchu juseyo', you don't know what they say. But, naturally, whatever they said, it all MUST have been just dripping with hate and racism, so might as well come on to Daves and perpetuate some overly paranoid rant.
Last edited by chronicpride on Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Daegu (Taegu) Fire Incident?! |
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| Cognorati wrote: |
How can people (apologists) justify this behavior, other then to confess that it's an example of herd mentality gone completely psychotic: so you stand by and watch someone kill not only your fellow man (your fellow Korean, which is an important distinction for the biggots out there), but you watch him kill YOU, too?
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This is part of human nature, not just some freakish aspect of Korean culture. Ask Kitty Genovese. |
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Cognorati
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| I saw maybe 1-2 yrs old, because you obviously have never lived in a Western multicultural society long enough to see racism and bigotry being really present and from people who are not too timid to actually spill blood over someone giving a wrong look to another. |
Wow, such intelligent responses (as usual) on this forum. Mommy and Daddy's basement: HAHAHAH!! Where do they get these "teachers" from? One should reallly refrain from ad hominems on an online forum, considering that one doesn't know much about the history of an individual poster (age, living circumstances, etc). I've lived in a number of cities, world-class, with subways more active than Korea, and have commuted in subways daily for much of my life.
I asked some of my wealthy students, being the good Confucian- influenced Northeast Asians that I know they are, what they would do if they saw an elderly woman being mugged in the street.
The first that responded were the young males: they said they would do nothing. It wasn't their problem.
There was a poster here, a couple of months ago, who was injured in an accident, and while he was unconscious was not only left unattended, but mugged on the pavement -- good Samaritans, I don't think so.
The most significant issue of the do nothing, "stand by and watch" tendency of Koreans is the issue of sexual assault and domestic violence, particularly when committed against foreign women -- and unfortunately, there are those of us non-Koreans who know women living here who have been personally affected. The police do not take reports, or treat the sexual assault of foreigners as a crime.
I know that the (sexist) posters on this forum don't particularly care about violence perpatrated on a sub-set of the Non-Korean population (women), and I know this conversation is too elevated, and many would rather post pictures of unsuspecting Korean women with their panties exposed, but this is a significant issue for those Non-Koreans living here and those thinking of coming. This is a dimension of racism and sexism in action that has not been addressed to the detriment of those victimized. Rather than delete this post, I hope this issue is discussed and considered, because as a woman living in Korea, I know that this is an issue than may deserve the most serious consideration of non-Koreans considering coming..
If you have any formal education on the progression of racism  , it does take progressive steps in intensity:
A history of hostility to ethnic groups or outsiders> discriminatory acts> discriminatory laws inacted> violence. But of course, not many culturally-literate folk out here, in Korea; Korea does attract a traveler with a certain profile (a nota bene to all considering living and working here)...
What of the UN statement on racism in Korea, why no comments? Is racism just an idle phenomenon, with no impact on country's citizens or inhabitants, or is it an issue human rights, safety, and dignity? (Attention: for those who are illogical, this is the heart of the matter).
It's time for the foreign community in Korea to stop being passive observers of the flaws of Korean society, as though it was just a matter of cultural relativity, but to consider the real implications of certain measures and tendencies.
Why do people have to keep pointing out to you the deficits in apologist logic? |
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Yurim
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Please don't make unjustified assumptions about Korea.
There were 1,037,000 volunteers thirty-three days after the December 7th oil spill in Taean, Chungcheong-do: http://www.korea.net/News/News/NewsView.asp?serial_no=20080111033
If that is not an indication of an communally conscientious society, I don�t know what is.
People have went out of their way to help out and provide guidance. Actually, recently I'm a bit worried by how stratified things are becoming...
Freud stated that people have a (innate or conditioned?) proclivity towards an �oceanic feeling� that leads to contentment but creates a condition in which extremes may be considered unfavorable although the relative disparity defines our capacity to be conscious of the values on both ends of the spectrum.
I bring up this (rather dated) reference because it might bear relevance to Korea�s income/social gap... (And this is out of my field).
In other words, might there be a sort of balance in inequity? The way that unlimited free choice and limited capacity is as equally restrictive as unlimited capacity and few choices?
| Quote: |
| "How about in front of Best Buy in the US, when they unlock the doors to let the masses in to buy PS3s. Americans are trampling each other and their lives aren't even at stake. So give Koreans a little bit of a break when they see their lives legitimately pass before their eyes.� ] |
a
Does this mean the trampler "masses"* of Best Buy, mosh pits, World Cup, nightclubs, Myanmar and Jumanji are alike? Although they cannot compare, do they justify judgment upon others?
A magazine picture with a girl whose legs had welts in them from high heeled "fashion" stillettoes. Out of context, they could be welts her mother gives hitting with a stick (which, in Korea, was common practice and it is love to hit the child for discipline). In yet another context, they could be inflicted upon an innocent person for political dissent... It's as cruel and demeaning for the model as for the dissenter, in different ways (the oppression is much less obvious for the model than for the dissenter). In an ideal world none of this would be necessary, but what is the price of an ideal world? I think it's wrong to exclude people just for an ideal situation. Isn't that how genocides happen?
It's a question I've been curious about. For instance, among the "masses" of won, a stolen won is different from an earned won is different from a borrowed won. But if 1,000 won buys a loaf of bread, you eat it and then you spend 100,000 won on a diet program to lose the fat you got from eating the bread, how's that different from buying 101 loaves of bread and giving it to 101 people, or buying a 101,000w coat, or converting 101,000w to 10,1000 10w coins and making a 1-pyong house out of them (in "homage," so to speak, towards Ann Hamilton's Tropos)?
An action done with ill intent is different from an action done with good intent unless it causes harm/suffering to others and that person knows it causes harm/suffering to others.
For example, if I give a package of shrimp chips to someone who's allergic to shrimp chips as a friendly gesture but didn't know, can you blame either the person who takes the shrimp chips or the person who gives them? Can it be just as bad for someone to accept the shrimp chips knowing it will cause allergies just to blame the giver for giving them the shrimp chips?
However, it is true that you can�t blame people for circumstances where they freeze up and can�t respond out of shock. There was a fire (thankfully, no one was hurt and it caused minor kitchen damage) at a restaurant near my residence. The building spewed burnt electric trails into the sky and people/staff were huddled out in below 0 weather as the fire truck came in to efficiently douse the fire. What else can they do but watch? They are not firepersons nor do they have the equipment to deal with the situation. The best they could do is comfort each other and do what they can for each other.
Besides you label the milk-cartoner, which is part and parcel the cause and effect of the problem. So people hate someone because he�s a �weirdo� and because of that, he thinks he's a weirdo and because he thinks he's a weirdo he acts more weird, thus confirming other people's views that he is a weirdo and what if it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of self-fulfilling prophecies?
The words �bigot,� �herd mentality,� and �psychotic� are essentially polarizing and biased themselves because you are automatically ostracizing and marginalizing others and this is partially what causes the terrible calamities you see in society today.
How do you reconcile the following four quotations:
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who in times of great crisis, maintain neutrality" - Adlai? Stephenson
"An eye for an eye makes the world blind" - Gandhi
�The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.� - F. Scott Fitzgerald
"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Sermon on the Mount
Dean Salovy of Yale U. states in an entrance speech:
"Discourse seems often to have the following structure: Consider no more than two possible sides to a question, place them in opposition, focus on the approach you consider �correct,� and caricature, then vilify and ultimately dismiss the opposing point of view. Some of the popular clich�s of recent times reflect this polarized thinking style: Which side are you on? Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Are you for us or against us? Are you metro or retro?
F. Scott Fitzgerald captured the kind of critical and multifaceted thinking encouraged by Yale College when he wrote, 2 To contemplate two contradictory ideas simultaneously may sound simple to you, but we live in a world in which controversies are thought to yield to one and only one correct answer. We have become conditioned, as it were, to acknowledge no more than two polarized perspectives on a problem, abandon one of them as soon as is feasible, and embrace the other with emotional fervor and moral certainty. We learn to caricature the opposition�s position, paint it as ethically bankrupt if possible, engage in polarized debate, and, after a time, declare victory. " - Dean Salovy, Yale U.
What makes him so sure that this is the case? His argument does not "declare victory" but just assumes victory in the sense that he says "this is the way things are" when they might really not be that way.
Of course, I'm not a Yalie so you have no reason to respect what I have no say.
Sorry if this is not "in intellectual fashion" because I have not studied much philosophy.
On top of that, another sort of ethical problem: I enjoy collecting labels and made in tags in the vain hopes of collaging them into a larger art piece. However, I don't have the patience to do it myself and I don't want to distribute the work to other people because it would be a repetition of sweatshop labor that "uses" people...Notwithstanding the fact that to collect labels in the first place seems sort of greedy, but the point is to connect them in clusters of countries for greater awareness of the people who make the clothes, where they come from, etc.
And out of spite biases and assumptions on fate and predestination, I ruin my enjoyment of books by reading the first and last sentence of them.... Coming from a time when I didn't read the ends of books out of love for them. A kind of intellectual suicide, but who cares.
Because there are more worthwhile people and ideas and problems to care about than me.
*Despite my reluctance to use the word �masses� because that lumps everyone into one general term, which does not account for the value of each person�s lives and individuality.. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Cognorati wrote: |
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| I saw maybe 1-2 yrs old, because you obviously have never lived in a Western multicultural society long enough to see racism and bigotry being really present and from people who are not too timid to actually spill blood over someone giving a wrong look to another. |
Wow, such intelligent responses (as usual) on this forum. Mommy and Daddy's basement: HAHAHAH!! Where do they get these "teachers" from? One should reallly refrain from ad hominems on an online forum, considering that one doesn't know much about the history of an individual poster (age, living circumstances, etc). I've lived in a number of cities, world-class, with subways more active than Korea, and have commuted in subways daily for much of my life.
I asked some of my wealthy students, being the good Confucian- influenced Northeast Asians that I know they are, what they would do if they saw an elderly woman being mugged in the street.
The first that responded were the young males: they said they would do nothing. It wasn't their problem.
There was a poster here, a couple of months ago, who was injured in an accident, and while he was unconscious was not only left unattended, but mugged on the pavement -- good Samaritans, I don't think so.
The most significant issue of the do nothing, "stand by and watch" tendency of Koreans is the issue of sexual assault and domestic violence, particularly when committed against foreign women -- and unfortunately, there are those of us non-Koreans who know women living here who have been personally affected. The police do not take reports, or treat the sexual assault of foreigners as a crime.
I know that the (sexist) posters on this forum don't particularly care about violence perpatrated on a sub-set of the Non-Korean population (women), and I know this conversation is too elevated, and many would rather post pictures of unsuspecting Korean women with their panties exposed, but this is a significant issue for those Non-Koreans living here and those thinking of coming. This is a dimension of racism and sexism in action that has not been addressed to the detriment of those victimized. Rather than delete this post, I hope this issue is discussed and considered, because as a woman living in Korea, I know that this is an issue than may deserve the most serious consideration of non-Koreans considering coming..
If you have any formal education on the progression of racism , it does take progressive steps in intensity:
A history of hostility to ethnic groups or outsiders> discriminatory acts> discriminatory laws inacted> violence. But of course, not many culturally-literate folk out here, in Korea; Korea does attract a traveler with a certain profile (a nota bene to all considering living and working here)...
What of the UN statement on racism in Korea, why no comments? Is racism just an idle phenomenon, with no impact on country's citizens or inhabitants, or is it an issue human rights, safety, and dignity? (Attention: for those who are illogical, this is the heart of the matter).
It's time for the foreign community in Korea to stop being passive observers of the flaws of Korean society, as though it was just a matter of cultural relativity, but to consider the real implications of certain measures and tendencies.
Why do people have to keep pointing out to you the deficits in apologist logic? |
Better get used to it. Ad hominem attacks are the first line of defense around these parts. If you disagree with the wrong posters you are automatically a pathetic loser who lives with mom and dad, flipped burgers at the local Mc'donalds wherever you came from, and could only date fat, ugly chicks (if you're a guy) back home. I really don't know a way around the stereotype other than maybe to annouce in your very first post that you are gay. That would ptetty much cover the fat chicks part and also, it's politically incorrect these days to bash gays. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Avatar |
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BTW, OP, your avatar is way too large: from the 'profile' section on avatars:
"Displays a small graphic image below your details in posts. Only one image can be displayed at a time, its width can be no greater than 80 pixels, the height no greater than 80 pixels, and the file size no more than 6 KB.
Mine is 12 KB, & 184 x 152 pixels. But yours is a massive 54 KB, & 450 x 327 pixels. You can reduce the size, in photoshop. Or the free 'Gimp' program. |
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DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I was here in the Gu when that went down. It was whacked out! The subway station was open to the public a week or so after the incident. It was like touring a Nazi death camp. The walls were all black and there were scratch marks on the wall from people gagging their last breath. In my opinion opening that up to the public under those circumstances was just not cool...just not a place for kids to be walking around.
On another note, it is true in that some Koreans just sat on their ass. Someone took some photos with their camera before getting the heck off that subway. It was crazy! Smoke everywhere and people just sitting there waiting for someone else to do something! Crazy I tell you! I mean, my reaction is when I see smoke I get the hell out of there. But you actually had people sitting on their ass waiting for someone else to sort out the problem. Sad, sad, sad....
DK |
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butlerian
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| DaeguKid wrote: |
On another note, it is true in that some Koreans just sat on their ass. Someone took some photos with their camera before getting the heck off that subway. It was crazy! Smoke everywhere and people just sitting there waiting for someone else to do something! Crazy I tell you! I mean, my reaction is when I see smoke I get the hell out of there. But you actually had people sitting on their ass waiting for someone else to sort out the problem. Sad, sad, sad....
DK |
Yeah...reminds me of the recent plane crash in Thailand. Footage on youtube of Westerners who escaped from the crash and doing nothing to help others from the wreckage. Don't fool yourself - if any ideology promotes individualism and self-preservation, its Western ideology. |
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DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| butlerian wrote: |
| DaeguKid wrote: |
On another note, it is true in that some Koreans just sat on their ass. Someone took some photos with their camera before getting the heck off that subway. It was crazy! Smoke everywhere and people just sitting there waiting for someone else to do something! Crazy I tell you! I mean, my reaction is when I see smoke I get the hell out of there. But you actually had people sitting on their ass waiting for someone else to sort out the problem. Sad, sad, sad....
DK |
Yeah...reminds me of the recent plane crash in Thailand. Footage on youtube of Westerners who escaped from the crash and doing nothing to help others from the wreckage. Don't fool yourself - if any ideology promotes individualism and self-preservation, its Western ideology. |
Well if seeing smoke and running is Western ideology, call me a proud North American! There were Koreans who took matters into their own hands and got the hell out of there, and there were Koreans who sat back and waited for help that never came.
I just know myself personally would not be waiting for anyone if smoke and fire are coming my way. I mean, isn't that just human nature? I guess not seeing as some folks did nothing about it. |
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