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| Who's going to win? |
| Brock Lesnar |
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78% |
[ 11 ] |
| Frank Mir |
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21% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 14 |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir |
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| Well, what's your prediction? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'll fearlessly predict that Lesnar will win (after predicting Mir in the other thread ...  ) |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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My apologies if there is already another poll out there... I looked quickly, but didn't see one.
I'm actually pulling for Lesnar. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| Lesnar will eat all of the ringers they'll throw at him. Then he'll get his ass handed to him by one of the elites. |
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JAWINSEOUL
Joined: 19 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| Lesnar will eat all of the ringers they'll throw at him. Then he'll get his ass handed to him by one of the elites. |
The question is who are the "elites" in the UFC Heavyweight division.
Arlovski Andrei 12-5-0 6' 4" (193 cm) 240 (109 kg)
Cro Cop Mirko 22-5-2 6' 2" (188 cm) 220 (100 kg) 
Kongo Cheick 20-3-1 6' 4" (193 cm) 240 (109 kg)
Nogueira Antonio Rodrigo 30-4-1 6' 1" (185 cm) 240 (109 kg)
Sylvia Tim 26-3-0 6' 8" (203 cm) 255 (116 kg)
Vera Brandon 8-1-0 6' 2" (188 cm) 223 (101 kg)
Lesnar Brock 1-0-0 6' 3" (191 cm) 265 (120 kg)
Other then Sylvia noone is even close to him in size. Nogueira Antonio Rodrigo is a great fight, but the others are that great.
Arlovski runs hot and cold.
Cro Cop has lost his egde.
Kongo Cheick is unproven.
Nogueira Antonio Rodrigo is the man.
Sylvia maybe be able to keep brock away from him.
Vera Brandon showed his lack of ability to deal with size.
Brocks is fast strong and mean, all the tools to be a champion. So what elites do you think can beat him and how will they do it ? |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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To be honest, I haven't followed it in a very long time.
But I think anyone who's gone the distance before and has the experience will tie Brock up in knots.
Though I could be wrong. For all of the stunt-men, amateur wrestlers, football players, and gym bunnies the WWE has hired over the decades, a few legit tough guys have snuck in.
Brock could be one of them. |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| I think Nog or Werdum would beat him. Maybe even Gonzaga. |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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A regular segment on The Fight Network�s original TV series� �Before The Bell� and �After The Bell,� Randy Couture has his �Natural Picks� for this Saturday�s UFC 81 �Breaking Point� - live from the Mandalay Bay Events Center in Las Vegas - locked in.
Here�s what the expert analyst is predicting:
INTERIM HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP: Tim Sylvia (26-3) vs. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (30-4-1) � Sylvia
�I think Tim will tire Nogueira out on his feet. I think Nogueira�s going to have trouble putting him on the ground and maneuvering Sylvia into his strength, which is his submission game. I can see it going a third-round KO, but I could also see it going the distance and Nogueira getting a beating.�
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HEAVYWEIGHT: Frank Mir (10-3) vs. Brock Lesnar (1-0) - Mir
�I�m going with Mir with a second-round submission. As big and strong as Lesnar is, and as hard as he�s going to come, I think he�s going to put Mir right where he wants to be and Lesnar�s going to get out of position and get caught.�
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MIDDLEWEIGHT: Jeremy Horn (88-16-5) vs. Nate Marquardt (28-7-1) - Marquardt
�I�m going to go with Marquardt. Jeremy hasn�t really been the same since the Liddell fight. I think he realized he�s not infallible and can be hurt. Taking the fight on short notice probably isn�t the wisest thing. Marquardt is strong for that weight class and hits hard. I think Horn�s going to have trouble taking Marquardt down to find a wily way to submit him.�
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MIDDLEWEIGHT: Rob Yundt (7-0) vs. Ricardo Almeida (8-2) - Almeida
�Almeida.�
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LIGHTWEIGHT: Gleison Tibau (27-3) vs. Tyson Griffin (10-1) - Griffin
�I�m going with Tyson Griffin. Both guys have great fighting spirit, but Tyson�s very difficult to submit and will bring a torturable pace to the fight that Tibau�s going to have trouble keeping. I think it will be a decision and probably be the fight of the night.� |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a good article:
http://www.wrestlingobserver.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=21974
| Quote: |
�The UFC�s Next Big Thing�
Though his chest is currently adorned with a single-edged knife, had Brock Lesnar known what was ahead, a sword with a double-edge may have been more apropos. From the beginning, it was clear that booking Lesnar was going to be an incredibly challenging task for the Ultimate Fighting Championship. In Lesnar, the promotion has one of mixed martial art�s most unique cases. He only has one fight to his credit, a June 2, 2007 first-round mauling of Judo silver medalist, Min Soo Kim, that was the main-event of K-1 HERO*S - Dynamite!! USA show. This Saturday, Lesnar looks to also be at the top draw of what is traditionally one of the UFC�s biggest events, its Superbowl weekend show. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any North American MMArtist that headlined a PPV in their professional debut, nor can I think of one that is basically doing the same in their second go around (putting aside the early UFC events).
Just as Japan first gave MMA a mainstream home, so, too does that nation provide different roadmaps for how to handle Lesnar�s situation. Akebono, a living legend in the country due to his years of Sumo success, made his MMA debut in the main-event of the 2004 New Year�s Eve show, losing by first round submission to another fighting legend, Royce Gracie. One year prior, Akebono made his kickboxing debut, losing by knock out in the first round to Bob Sapp. In both fights, the casual fan interest was through the roof, with the ratings for his bout against Sapp reaching almost unthinkable highs. Yet, in his first 13 fights, Akebono had one win, a victory over K-1 referee Nobuaki Kakuda (for however legitimate that was and for whatever worth it has). The UFC is probably hoping Lesnar doesn�t go 1-12.
Though his current record is 7-5-1, Judoka Hidehiko Yoshida�s career is somewhat preferable to Akebono�s. Having won a gold medal in the 1992 Olympics, Yoshida was a national hero when he stepped into the world of combat sports. His August 2002 debut was not without controversy. On the same incredible card that saw Kazushi Sakuraba take on Mirko CroCop and Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira cause the world to think he was inhuman as he tapped out Sapp, Yoshida competed in what was essentially a submission-grappling match with Royce Gracie. To the surprise of MMA fans that had grown up watching Gracie and for whom exposure to high-level Judo was little to none, Yoshida dominated Gracie. Eventually, Yoshida cinched what looked like a tight Gi choke. Believing Royce had gone limp, and knowing that Gracie family�s legacy of refusing to tap no matter the circumstance, the referee waived off the contest and declared Yoshida the winner. Royce immediately jumped to his feet, protested the stoppage, and insisted that he was never out. Replays seemed to confirm Gracie�s assertion but it didn�t matter; to the Japanese audience, Yoshida had won.
Yoshida followed this up with his first full-fledged MMA fight, taking on a man that personified the phrase, tough as nails: Don Frye. Again to the surprise of long-time MMA fans Yoshida dominated. He took Frye down and literally broke the American�s arm with an armbar. Sadly, controversy also followed this fight. Some MMA fans, those always looking for a conspiracy, insisted that Frye had been paid to take a dive. It was a bogus claim, an opinion held only be a select few stupid enough to deny the talents of a world-class athlete. Frye�s arm was broken, he had the medical bills to prove it, and he always insisted the fight was a work (and Frye never denied the difference between his worked and shoot fights).
Yoshida then fought pro-wrestler, and accomplished MMArtist, Kiyoshi Tamura. Again, Yoshida took the fight to the ground and secured a submission with total ease. And, again, a loud, ignorant minority of fans cried work, refusing to believe Yoshida could be that good. It wasn�t until Yoshida fought, and lost by close decision, Wanderlei Silva that the bellowing few, never believing that Silva was anything less than 100% legit and knowing he�d never carry an opponent, saw fit to shut their mouths.
With years of weekly television exposure wrestling for World Wrestling Entertainment in front of millions, Lesnar entered MMA more famous than all but a handful of fighters. Unlike the Sumo star, Lesnar is expected to, and there is every indication that he should, compete. With his legitimate wrestling pedigree serving as a base, along with his ridiculous physical gifts, the man once deemed �The Next Big Thing� in WWE might just be that in MMA as well. In that respect, Lesnar is much more like Yoshida than Akebono in that he�s famous but also possesses a set of skills that translate to MMA. And like Yoshida, Lesnar will carry the baggage of detractors doubting the legitimacy of whatever he accomplishes. For every win the Minnesotan nets, you can bet there will be those claiming it was all a work.
Lesnar�s amateur wrestling background is one that has served many of today�s biggest stars very well. Look no further than current UFC fighter � and, like Lesnar, former NCAA division one wrestling champion � Josh Koscheck. He went from pure wrestler to top-flight welterweight in around three years. Though Koscheck�s first professional fight was in January of 2004, he has readily admitted that he didn�t really train all facets of MMA until after his appearance on the first season of The Ultimate Fighter. Using that time frame, Koscheck became an elite fighter in essentially two years, or roughly the exact same amount of time Lesnar has been training for the sport. And Koscheck did it as a welterweight, a weight-class that demands more in terms of overall skill than the heavyweights.
Still, denying that Lesnar has potential is a game played by few (perhaps that same chattering class that once doubted Yoshida). What the UFC must deal with is the unenviable task of balancing Lesnar�s potential to be a great fighter with his current guarantee to be a great box office draw.
(Let us all pause and shed a tear for Zuffa. Knowing you�re going to make millions of dollars off a fighter and figuring out the best way to do so is a horrible affair to endure.)
There never was a right or a wrong way to book Lesnar. It did seem that there were two schools of thought though: The Economists and The Sports Fan.
The Economists� thought was to throw him in with the very best immediately. If Lesnar lost, it wasn�t a big deal because it could be sold to the general public that it was a valuable learning experience. Furthermore, despite being the MMA equivalent of a #1 overall draft pick, there is no guarantee that Lesnar would find success. Putting him in with someone like Tim Sylvia made certain that the UFC got at least some value out of Lesnar. And, should Lesnar win a fight of such magnitude, then he�d instantly become credible to both MMA and pro wrestling fans, perhaps even making him the sport�s biggest star, period.
The Sports Fan believed Lesnar should be groomed the way any other fighter would, having him take on opponents of a similar experience level and gradually working his way up the ladder. Almost completely unknown to anyone but the most hardcore of fight fans is a great heavyweight wrestler from Arizona named Cain Velasquez. Because he�s anonymous, Velazquez has been able to fight the likes of Jesse Fujarczyk and Jeremiah Constant (no, you�re not supposed to know who they are, don�t worry), enabling him to slowly develop and hone his stills. This is the path The Sports Fan would like to see Lesnar walk.
Neither side is completely wrong nor completely right. It�s tough to justify the likely big money Lesnar is getting by having him fight the Fujarczyk�s of the world for a year or two. The novelty of watching Lesnar fight MMA will quickly wear off and your average PPV buyer may not be sympathetic to the idea that Lesnar need be brought along slowly. Plus, there is always the added danger � and after a year of upsets in 2007, this should be more clear than ever before � that Lesnar might lose to a relatively sub-par heavyweight. Should Lesnar step in with someone like Eddie Sanchez and lose, no good could come of it. Sanchez isn�t going to be a top fighter nor a top draw, so he will have gained nothing and Lesnar will have been beaten by someone seen as a non-contender.
Putting Lesnar in with Sylvia or Nogueira may minimize the damage of a loss to a degree, because both men have established themselves as top fighters and a high profile win over Lesnar will raise their future stock. But for every loss Lesnar suffers, his standing decreases. Lesnar�s deal is not for one fight and you can imagine the UFC doesn�t want to kill the potential golden goose after just one egg. Should he fight nothing but elite talent, he may find himself starting his UFC career with a series of losses, leaving the indelible impression in casual fan�s minds that he�s just not that good.
Thus, a compromise of sorts has been reached and Lesnar will face Frank Mir. Mir is a former UFC Heavyweight Champion who was once groomed as the company�s heavyweight poster boy until a motorcycle accident forced him from the sport for a year and a half. Despite a series of lackluster performances, Mir still retains a great deal of his popularity and is a legitimate star to UFC fans. In fact, with the departure of Randy Couture, Mir likely has as much fame as any current heavyweight fighter in the company. At the same time � a first round submission over Antoni Hardonk notwithstanding � Mir isn�t the same fighter that once snapped Sylvia�s arm in two. The aforementioned motorcycle accident undoubtedly took a toll on Mir mentally, but he�s also come into fights fat and out of shape. He�s been lazy in his training, choosing to not do so full time, and almost uninterested in the midst of his fights. He�s lost twice as many fights in his last four bouts than he did in his first nine.
Mir is almost the perfect foe for Lesnar. He isn�t a top-flight fighter, but he has the name value of one. He�s someone that is still dangerous enough that Lesnar has to take him seriously, but not so dangerous that Lesnar doesn�t have a solid chance to win. A victory over Mir won�t guarantee that Lesnar one day hugs a UFC title. A loss won�t prematurely end his career and it may actually simultaneously prove enough to springboard Mir into contendership. Finally, Mir should prove a decent barometer of where Lesnar�s development stands. If Lesnar is easily tapped by Mir, he would surely have a difficult time with a division featuring submission artists like Gabriel Gonzaga, Fabrico Werdum, and Nogueira. However, if Brock can avoid what Mir offers, all but the elite grapplers are going to be nervous because with a takedown that should rank amongst the best, if you can�t beat Lesnar on the ground, he�s going to be difficult to beat period. If that proves true, �The Next Big Thing� may have a different title: UFC Heavyweight Champion. |
And another one:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080131/sports/mma_ufc81
| Quote: |
He can wrestle. He can entertain. But can he fight?
Former WWE star Brock Lesnar will finally answer that question Saturday night when he climbs into the cage against former UFC heavyweight champion Frank Mir for his UFC debut at UFC 81: Breaking Point at the Mandalay Bay.
For Lesnar, after almost two years of MMA training, it's a chance to shed the "big question mark" on his back.
"Let's do it buddy," a relaxed Lesnar told Mir at Thursday's pre-fight news conference.
The 30-year-old Lesnar is 1-0 as an MMA fighter, having demolished unheralded South Korean Min Soo Kim on a lesser circuit in June. Mir, a jiu-jitsu black belt who has been involved in martial arts all his life, is 10-3 (including 8-3 in the UFC) and a former title-holder.
Yet the bookies have made Lesnar almost a 2-1 favourite. Still, the big man doesn't seem fazed, saying he feels he has finally found his calling.
"There's a little pressure, but I mean I'm not going to piss my pants or anything like that," Lesnar said. "We prepared in this camp to fight Frank. I've had a good training camp.
"This is nothing new to me. Being in front of you people, I've had eight, 10, 12 years now, through college and whatnot and this, that and the other. It's going to be an honour to get into the Octagon finally."
The former NCAA wrestling champion is a physical presence at 6-3 and some 265 pounds. He has a 36-inch waist and an oversized upper body that fits into a jacket size of 54 to 56. With his blond crew cut, he looks like a farm boy turned NFL lineman (something he dabbled with during a brief 2004 stint in camp with the Minnesota Vikings).
The UFC has been talking Lesnar up for months and there was more of the same Thursday.
"This guy's a great wrestler, he's a great athlete. He won his (first MMA) fight. He deserves to be here," said UFC president Dana White. "We'll find out Saturday if he can hang with the best in the world."
"He's an amazing athlete," added Tim Sylvia, who takes on Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira for the interim heavyweight title the same night. "Seeing a big man like this move the way he does. He moves like a 200-pound man, which is really surprising."
"He's got a great wrestling pedigree ... He's a strong guy, he's a huge guy," said lightweight Kenny Florian.
Wrestling is seen as the base for most mixed martial arts fighters, so Lesnar is well served there. He has also chosen a good camp in the Minnesota Martial Arts Academy, with MMA coach Greg Nelson and strength and conditioning guru Marty Morgan.
But in Mir, he faces a submission expert who seems to have found his form again after a near fatal motorcycle crash in September 2004. Remember Mir broke Sylvia's arm with a submission hold at UFC 48 in June 2004 to win the vacant title before being sidelined by the crash.
In his first few comeback fights, Mir looked boxy and immobile. And his conditioning has been suspect at times in the past. But he looked slick and dangerous in submitting Dutch kickboxer Antoni Hardonk in just 77 seconds at UFC 74 last August.
The 6-1 Mir looks lean and in shape for Lesnar. He reckons he will be between 245 and 255 fight night.
"I finally figured out how to train properly . . . Now I realize that training's not something you do eight weeks out from the fight," Mir said. "After I fought Hardonk, I was back in the gym Monday."
Being overweight takes a toll, says the 28-year-old Mir, using an outdoors analogy to make his point. If you go hiking and someone hands you a 20-pound weight, "you're going to be hating life."
"Halfway up the mountain, I say 'Drop the weight.' You drop the weight and you're good to go."
"That's why I haven't seen any 300-pound triathletes yet," Mir added wrly.
Mir recalls he was also an underdog against notorious brawler Tank Abbott at UFC 41 in February 2003. But Mir needed just 46 seconds and a toe hold to force the veteran to tap.
Florian, a savvy handicapper of fights, believes Mir will have the advantage early on, based on his ground game and submission skills.
"And you never know how people are going react in there in the Octagon. I know Lesnar's said he's been here before, he's seen the crowds but being in the cage, once that cage shuts . . . all of a sudden you realize 'Wow, I'm here, It's going to happen right now. This other guy, across the ring, is going to hit me in the face as hard as he can.' Things change."
Florian wonders what Lesnar will do if he ends up on top, in Mir's guard. Will he aggressively try to ground and pound, which might open him up to a submission, or will he play it safe and chip away at Mir?
A mental error could be deadly against Mir, says Florian.
"It's a tough fight for Lesnar. Lesnar's got his hands full against Mir, a true UFC veteran."
Like Lesnar, Mir has been saying all the right things in the leadup to the fight. There has been no trash-talking, only respect. And Lesnar has earned props throughout the sport for telling the UFC he would fight whomever they put in front of him.
The Sylvia-Nogueira matchup seems to have got lost in the shuffle behind the Lesnar-Mir hype. In a pre-fight conference call, Sylvia was pretty much ignored and left the call early for some reason, although he was relaxed and friendly Thursday.
The other heavyweight matchup could be an interesting one, however. The six-foot-eight Sylvia is an awkward opponent, who showed against Jeff (The Snowman) Monson that he can defend submissions on the ground. He is also motivated as he bids to move one step closer to claiming the heavyweight belt for a third time.
Sylvia's reach and striking ability also make him hard to hunt down although Nogueira, a former Pride champion, has the submission skills to make him pay if he catches him. Still Nogueira did little to impress in his UFC debut win over Heath Herring, who stunned him with a kick to the head late in the first round.
With the UFC suing heavyweight champion Randy Couture over Couture's decision to walk away from his contract, the heavyweight title remains in limbo. White challenged Couture on Thursday to end the infighting.
"Come on Captain America, step up and be a man and give these guys the opportunity to win the title," White said.
"He's the heavyweight champion. He signed a contract with us less than a year ago and I expect him to honour it. And I expect him to be a standup guy and give these guys the opportunities they gave him." |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Randy Couture (among others) was very accurate in his analysis of what would happen. Lesnar (supported by some current and former WWE "superstars" in at ringside - including Kurt Angle, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, "Undertaker", and "Sable" ...) started impressively with a very fast takedown, tried to overpower his opponent with some ground-and-pound, and was able to power out of armbar attempts by Mir.
But, due to inexperience and/or loss of focus he got out of position and got his leg caught in an expertly applied knee-lock - and didn't make it past the first round... |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:18 am Post subject: |
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And I guessed it correctly.
Lesnar had a bad attitude in WWE and got very arrogant very quickly. It seems history has repeated itself. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
| And I guessed it correctly. |
Me too! And I'm not up on the sport. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I just know Brock.
| twg wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| And I guessed it correctly. |
Me too! And I'm not up on the sport. |
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