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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Cindy Sheehan in Egypt |
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Cindy Sheehan in Egypt for Islamists
Feb 13 06:10 PM US/Eastern
By MAGGIE MICHAEL
Associated Press Writer
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan joined a protest Wednesday seeking the support of Egypt's first lady in ending a military trial of members of the country's largest Islamic organization.
Under the watchful eyes of dozens of black-clad and helmeted anti-riot police, some 50 heavily veiled wives and children of 40 senior members of the Muslim Brotherhood detained for the past year, gathered in front of the headquarters of first lady Suzanne Mubarak's National Council Women carrying banners calling for their release.
"I am here to protest the trial of civilians in front of a military tribunal as this is a violation to international law," said Sheehan, who gained fame in the U.S. for her sit-in outside President Bush's Texas ranch following the death of her son in Iraq.
"As a mother of a son who was killed in the war, I presented a letter to Ms. Suzanne Mubarak to realize how those women and children are suffering."
The street protest was rare in Egypt where authorities ban most signs of public dissent.
One woman carried a sleeping infant in her arms along with a poster reading "Father, I miss you."
In December 2006, the government engaged in a wide-ranging crackdown against the Brotherhood, the country's largest opposition force�which holds one-fifth of the seats in the parliament�targeting in particular businessmen known to financially support the group.
In February 2007, President Hosni Mubarak ordered 40 of the organization's members to be tried by a military tribunal on charges of money laundering and terrorism. The court's verdict is expected Feb. 26.
According to the Brotherhood, 3,245 members of their organization were arrested in 2007.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UPMN401&show_article=1 |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Who paid for her travel costs?
Oh yeah, she saved on burial costs for her son.... |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| This woman makes me ill. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Here's the part that makes me ill.
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| In December 2006, the government engaged in a wide-ranging crackdown against the Brotherhood, the country's largest opposition force�which holds one-fifth of the seats in the parliament�targeting in particular businessmen known to financially support the group. |
Perhaps you'd like to try this is America: take the list of the largest donors to the Democratic Party, charge them with terroism, imprison them and subject them to military justice. (Clue: if the Muslim Brotherhood IS a supporter of terror, why are they allowed to participate in the democratic process? Just round them All up, and why not.)
Naw, much better to have somevague and flimsy trappings of democracy and then use torture and extraordinary military duress to make sure democracy never happens. Sad to say, but it's the risk of democracy that people might make a bad choice - vote for communists, say, in Lattin America, or theocracy in the Middle East.
I guess we have to ask ourselves, and ask honestly: do we want democracy? Does it work all? Is it only for us, or for others also? Is there something better? What should we do when it results in a bad choice?
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| In February 2007, President Hosni Mubarak ordered 40 of the organization's members to be tried by a military tribunal on charges of money laundering and terrorism. The court's verdict is expected Feb. 26. |
These people have been in jail for a year. This is a political process? This is a justice system? Do you defend it? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Why doesn't she go to Iran or Syria and try it?
The main problem is when it becomes selective.
Also and just important we ought to ask the question is the group she is speaking for in Egypt themselves democratic and/ or tolerent of other views?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
So with all the problems in the world why did she select this one? |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Wouldn't it be nice if she ended up in an Egyptian prison? |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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It would indeed.
The woman is a publicity-hungry opportunist. Posing at another person's grave and pretending it was her son's...disgusting. Spending the money she received for burial costs on her junkets around the world instead of a marker for her son's grave...until criticism forced her to.
We can only hope that she will get her just deserts. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Naw, much better to have somevague and flimsy trappings of democracy and then use torture and extraordinary military duress to make sure democracy never happens. Sad to say, but it's the risk of democracy that people might make a bad choice - vote for communists, say, in Lattin America, or theocracy in the Middle East.
I guess we have to ask ourselves, and ask honestly: do we want democracy? Does it work all? Is it only for us, or for others also? Is there something better? What should we do when it results in a bad choice? |
The answer to your question depends on the likely outcome of democracy. Democracy is not a value in itself. Ignore the hippies on this. Reality is a bitch. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I am here to protest the trial of civilians in front of a military tribunal as this is a violation to international law. |
Let me get this straight: first she takes a stand against the war, asking why her son had to die; then she moves to oppose W. Bush as the antichrist in such an aggressive manner that she gets thrown out of the State-of-the-Union Address 2006; then she claims expertise in U.S.-Middle Eastern relations and the Arab-Israeli Conflict; and now she claims to interpret and enforce "international law" in Egypt...?
What the *beep*, over? She has got to have the least subtle and indeed worst political handlers in the entire history of public-relations. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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WTC:
Shhh...don't let on to it. She's had fantasies of being in a cramped cell on a hot and humid Egyptian night with a Muslim radical for some time now. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Naw, much better to have somevague and flimsy trappings of democracy and then use torture and extraordinary military duress to make sure democracy never happens. Sad to say, but it's the risk of democracy that people might make a bad choice - vote for communists, say, in Lattin America, or theocracy in the Middle East.
I guess we have to ask ourselves, and ask honestly: do we want democracy? Does it work all? Is it only for us, or for others also? Is there something better? What should we do when it results in a bad choice? |
The answer to your question depends on the likely outcome of democracy. Democracy is not a value in itself. Ignore the hippies on this. Reality is a *beep*. |
Well, you are the only one who deigned to address the question at all, so I'll hand you that.
When you say "Democracy is not a value in itself" it begs a question - if it IS only a means to an end, a method of promoting other values and acheiving other goals - then, what exactly ARE those values and goals?
Because that's where we have to make our judgments, you know, and decide whether the freedom we enjoy is only to be at the expense of freedoms elsewhere - and when we look squarely at that, we must decide if the logic behind our democracy is really the logic of empire. And if that is the conclusion we reach, then we can also decide where we put our support and approval, and where instead we put our opposition and condemnation.
The_Conservative
| Quote: |
| We can only hope that she will get her just deserts. |
Can't resist. Do you hope she gets her Just Sahara Deserts or perhaps her Just Gobi Deserts - since she's from California, perhaps she ought to be satisfied with her Just Mojave Deserts, eh? Yeah, that's one she ought get, we're Americans, after all, she should be grateful for an American Just Desert, oh boy ...
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
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| Why doesn't she go to Iran or Syria and try it? |
You probably have an answer for this, and I hope it's better than Five-Oh-Guy's steamy seraglio porn fantasies ...
Gee, I dunno, could it possibly be because Syria is a kingdom, so criticizing them on democratic principles would be silly? Could it be because Iran is a theocracy so, same thing, both places that don't claim to be homes to democratic principles? Could it be that Egypt is really only called a democracy by Washington but is actually a brutal dictatorship that uses random detention and torture to maintai political hegemony of the ruling party?
Gee, do ya think?
And come back any time when you have some really difficult questions to answer, okay?
| Quote: |
| Also and just important we ought to ask the question is the group she is speaking for in Egypt themselves democratic and/ or tolerent of other views? |
Even if I trake your word for it that it is important - I don't really, there are many other things more important - then what you suggest is that democracy and toleration need only be supported by us with regard to those who also espouse and practice democracy and toleration. Um, but gee, if we did that, then we'd have to cut the purse-strings dangling from Egypt's shoulders, wouldn't we? All those billions in foreign aid to support what is supposedly the shining beacon of democracy in the Arab worlld ...
Yeah, right. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| When you say "Democracy is not a value in itself" it begs a question - if it IS only a means to an end, a method of promoting other values and acheiving other goals - then, what exactly ARE those values and goals? |
I wish you the best of luck getting a conservative to respond to this question in a way that is consistent and makes sense. What it always comes back to is some form of imperialistic nationalism: we should support anyone who advances the interests of the USA, regardless of who they are or what they do. Generally they toss in a few irrelevant attacks on America's enemies, just for seasoning.
Conservatism in America long ago stopped pretending that it stands for any abstract values or ideals, and embraced a particularly sickening brand of tribal identity politics wherein we are automatically The Good Guys. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| When you say "Democracy is not a value in itself" it begs a question - if it IS only a means to an end, a method of promoting other values and acheiving other goals - then, what exactly ARE those values and goals? |
I wish you the best of luck getting a conservative to respond to this question in a way that is consistent and makes sense. What it always comes back to is some form of imperialistic nationalism: we should support anyone who advances the interests of the USA, regardless of who they are or what they do. Generally they toss in a few irrelevant attacks on America's enemies, just for seasoning.
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Try and understand that "a conservative" is not always American. You can find them in just about any country.
As for the question about "democracy not being a value in itself" I take it to mean that epousing the values of democracy is useless in and of itself unless the underpinnings (a free press and market to name just two) are there as well. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| thepeel wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Naw, much better to have somevague and flimsy trappings of democracy and then use torture and extraordinary military duress to make sure democracy never happens. Sad to say, but it's the risk of democracy that people might make a bad choice - vote for communists, say, in Lattin America, or theocracy in the Middle East.
I guess we have to ask ourselves, and ask honestly: do we want democracy? Does it work all? Is it only for us, or for others also? Is there something better? What should we do when it results in a bad choice? |
The answer to your question depends on the likely outcome of democracy. Democracy is not a value in itself. Ignore the hippies on this. Reality is a *beep*. |
Well, you are the only one who deigned to address the question at all, so I'll hand you that.
When you say "Democracy is not a value in itself" it begs a question - if it IS only a means to an end, a method of promoting other values and acheiving other goals - then, what exactly ARE those values and goals?
Because that's where we have to make our judgments, you know, and decide whether the freedom we enjoy is only to be at the expense of freedoms elsewhere - and when we look squarely at that, we must decide if the logic behind our democracy is really the logic of empire. And if that is the conclusion we reach, then we can also decide where we put our support and approval, and where instead we put our opposition and condemnation.
The_Conservative
| Quote: |
| We can only hope that she will get her just deserts. |
Can't resist. Do you hope she gets her Just Sahara Deserts or perhaps her Just Gobi Deserts - since she's from California, perhaps she ought to be satisfied with her Just Mojave Deserts, eh? Yeah, that's one she ought get, we're Americans, after all, she should be grateful for an American Just Desert, oh boy ...
| Quote: |
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
| Quote: |
| Why doesn't she go to Iran or Syria and try it? |
You probably have an answer for this, and I hope it's better than Five-Oh-Guy's steamy seraglio porn fantasies ...
Gee, I dunno, could it possibly be because Syria is a kingdom, so criticizing them on democratic principles would be silly? Could it be because Iran is a theocracy so, same thing, both places that don't claim to be homes to democratic principles? Could it be that Egypt is really only called a democracy by Washington but is actually a brutal dictatorship that uses random detention and torture to maintai political hegemony of the ruling party?
Gee, do ya think?
And come back any time when you have some really difficult questions to answer, okay? |
| Quote: |
| Also and just important we ought to ask the question is the group she is speaking for in Egypt themselves democratic and/ or tolerent of other views? |
Even if I trake your word for it that it is important - I don't really, there are many other things more important - then what you suggest is that democracy and toleration need only be supported by us with regard to those who also espouse and practice democracy and toleration. Um, but gee, if we did that, then we'd have to cut the purse-strings dangling from Egypt's shoulders, wouldn't we? All those billions in foreign aid to support what is supposedly the shining beacon of democracy in the Arab worlld ...
Yeah, right. |
Yeah that is about right. Nothing wrong with supporting a dictator who is on your side when there is no liberal democratic alternative and the oppositon is every bit as oppressive as the dicator.
The US doens't consider Egypt a democracy. and Syria is not a kingdom either. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnotking wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| When you say "Democracy is not a value in itself" it begs a question - if it IS only a means to an end, a method of promoting other values and acheiving other goals - then, what exactly ARE those values and goals? |
I wish you the best of luck getting a conservative to respond to this question in a way that is *beep* and makes sense. What it always comes back to is some form of imperialistic nationalism: we should support anyone who advances the interests of the USA, regardless of who they are or what they do. Generally they toss in a few irrelevant attacks on America's enemies, just for seasoning.
Conservatism in America long ago stopped pretending that it stands for any abstract values or ideals, and embraced a particularly sickening brand of tribal identity politics wherein we are automatically The Good Guys. |
That sure worked out well the last time the US did like that.
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