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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Bush vetos humane conduct, protects torture |
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Ladies and Gentlemen, Bush's legacy: torture.
| Bush wrote: |
| Limiting the CIA's interrogation methods to those in the Army Field Manual would be dangerous because the manual is publicly available and easily accessible on the Internet. . . . If we were to shut down this program and restrict the CIA to methods in the Field Manual, we could lose vital information from senior al-Qaeda terrorists, and that could cost American lives |
BTW, John McCain voted against the torture ban. Neither Hillary nor Barack was present for the vote. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Bush needs some water-boarding, IMO. Cheney, too. And Rumsfeld.
All of it televised. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Sen. McCain's vote is a useful preview of how a McCain Administration would handle torture. We've all been warned. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Bush needs some water-boarding, IMO. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Bush needs some water-boarding |
Why? You're not going to get any intelligence out of him. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why? You're not going to get any intelligence out of him. |
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TheChickenLover
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: The Chicken Coop
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Compared to those people who make videos of cutting off people's heads screaming Allah is great, I think the US has been FAR too civil in this matter.
I'd like to see them fight without their hands tied behind their backs & really have the option to go in & finish this war.
For example, CNN shows a group meeting of insurgents in a house. They're ready to bomb it, but one insurgent puts a boy on the doorstep. The US cancels the bombing not to kill the boy.
If it were me, I'd have bombed the house. People need to understand that by associating & helping insurgents, you're just as guilty as they are. As far as I can tell, the US has been far too lenient & civil. They really need to be allowed to do what it takes.
Chicken |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheChickenLover wrote: |
Compared to those people who make videos of cutting off people's heads screaming Allah is great, I think the US has been FAR too civil in this matter.
I'd like to see them fight without their hands tied behind their backs & really have the option to go in & finish this war.
For example, CNN shows a group meeting of insurgents in a house. They're ready to bomb it, but one insurgent puts a boy on the doorstep. The US cancels the bombing not to kill the boy.
If it were me, I'd have bombed the house. People need to understand that by associating & helping insurgents, you're just as guilty as they are. As far as I can tell, the US has been far too lenient & civil. They really need to be allowed to do what it takes.
Chicken |
Yeah, that's an interesting point. But what if the terrorists regurgitated their grapefruit, precipitating a finite caucus of infinite variables and necessitating the fifth-dimensional manifestation of Kantian moral reasoning? What should we do then?
Oh, and there was a ticking time bomb, I forgot. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TheChickenLover wrote: |
I'd like to see them fight without their hands tied behind their backs & really have the option to go in & finish this war.
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More ignorance.
UNLESS, you can point me to some affirmative evidence of the reliability or efficacy of torture.
Let's look at what JAG has to say.
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| If, as both administration officials and their critics agree, information is crucial in preventing terrorist attacks, then the practice of torture needs rethinking on purely strategic grounds. There are two reasons for this. The first, cited commonly by critics as well as in the JAG memos, is simply that, on an individual level, torture is "of questionable practical value in obtaining reliable information." The "ticking bomb" scenario -- you have two hours to foil a plot to blow up part of New York City and a single man with crucial information in your hands -- has yet to find its way into reality (though Fox Broadcasting's show "24" may have convinced the television-watching population otherwise); nor has the government ever made the claim that they have gathered crucial or even valuable, otherwise unknown or unattainable evidence, from the detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib by such methods. And information obtained through torture is notorious for its unreliability. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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They really need to be allowed to do what it takes.
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Would you be advocating rounding up and shooting 10 people at random any time one of our soldiers is shot? |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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They really need to be allowed to do what it takes.
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Would you be advocating rounding up and shooting 10 people at random any time one of our soldiers is *beep*? |
He doesn't know what he's advocating or not advocating. Like every other proponent of torture and most proponents of war, his logic takes place in a completely fanciful and airbrushed realm that has nothing to with what torture actually is, why it's done, or what it accomplishes.
I was trying to make that point in my last post, but maybe my obtuseness wasn't clear enough. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheChickenLover wrote: |
I'd like to see them fight without their hands tied behind their backs & really have the option to go in & finish this war.
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More ignorance.
UNLESS, you can point me to some affirmative evidence of the reliability or efficacy of torture.
Let's look at what JAG has to say.
| Quote: |
| If, as both administration officials and their critics agree, information is crucial in preventing terrorist attacks, then the practice of torture needs rethinking on purely strategic grounds. There are two reasons for this. The first, cited commonly by critics as well as in the JAG memos, is simply that, on an individual level, torture is "of questionable practical value in obtaining reliable information." The "ticking bomb" scenario -- you have two hours to foil a plot to blow up part of New York City and a single man with crucial information in your hands -- has yet to find its way into reality (though Fox Broadcasting's show "24" may have convinced the television-watching population otherwise); nor has the government ever made the claim that they have gathered crucial or even valuable, otherwise unknown or unattainable evidence, from the detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib by such methods. And information obtained through torture is notorious for its unreliability. |
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The evidence you asked for.
"Abu Zubayda reportedly said after waterboarding that Allah told him to talk"
"Kiriakou: Suspect gave up information on al Qaeda, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed"
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/11/agent.tapes/index.html |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TheChickenLover wrote: |
Compared to those people who make videos of cutting off people's heads screaming Allah is great, I think the US has been FAR too civil in this matter.
I'd like to see them fight without their hands tied behind their backs & really have the option to go in & finish this war.
For example, CNN shows a group meeting of insurgents in a house. They're ready to bomb it, but one insurgent puts a boy on the doorstep. The US cancels the bombing not to kill the boy.
If it were me, I'd have bombed the house. People need to understand that by associating & helping insurgents, you're just as guilty as they are. As far as I can tell, the US has been far too lenient & civil. They really need to be allowed to do what it takes.
Chicken |
That's exactly what they would have done if CNN wasn't there. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The practice as used by the CIA bears similarities to the methods of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia... |
Then should not Noam Chomsky and the far left be praising the W. Bush Administration...?
| Quote: |
| Retired Army Lt. Gen. Harry E. Soyster, a former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, suggested that those who support harsh methods simply lack experience and do not know what they are talking about. "If they think these methods work, they're woefully misinformed," Soyster said at a news briefing called in anticipation of the veto. "Torture is counterproductive on all fronts. It produces bad intelligence. It ruins the subject, makes them useless for further interrogation. |
This argument, first of all, is totally correct, and, secondly, could and would persuade any reasonable audience to support banning these methods. People ought to refrain from the preaching, forget the violins, and eschew "we-need-the-rest-of-the-world's-moral-approval" commentary and focus on this powerful, pure nuts-and-bolts position.
I realize that my "any reasonable audience" qualifier probably excludes the President and those close to him who advocate these means. I wonder where the Secretary of Defense has come down on this issue in internal discussions. I expected him to bring balance back into the Oval Office on such issues as this. |
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TheChickenLover
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Location: The Chicken Coop
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have no interests in protecting their 'dignity'. You can't negotiate with overly religious people. It's like talking to a wall of blind ignorance for faith. They'll just never learn.
If a group of jihadist's want ot kill you 'the infidels' for whatever reason, then my solution is pretty simple: let them attack, if they do, wipe them out.
I'd prefer to see extremely stern measures taken. Let them know that they WILL be killed, & their families and friends may die if they follow them in this path by protecting them using themselves as human shields.
Forget about not bombing religious or other 'sensitive' targets. They use mosques as weapons caches & cry foul whenever anyone targets them because they are so 'sacred'. *beep* that, bomb the mosques. I'm sure you'll find 95% of the terrorists & problems in our Islamic society today there.
As for torture. Get whatever info you need regardless of what is required, then excecute them. Guantanamo is a waste of money. A bullet is far cheaper & makes the world safer.
Chicken |
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