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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: 6 years of prison later, you can have a phone call. |
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/11/guantanamo.phonecalls.ap/index.html
The more and more I read about Guantanamo the more it upsets me. I mean, what a bizzarre situation. Now I'm sure there are a few guys in there who need to be but from all that I have read there are many that don't. What the hell is wrong with this administration? If someone doesn't belong in there, why the hell can't they just set them free?
Why do you think they are still being held? To avoid furter blackening the reputation of this administration? Possible legal action against the government? Have some of these men, having gone in innocent, become actual threats? It's such a surreal situation. I wish I were a fly on the wall as it were, to get the real story of what is going on in there. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: Re: 6 years of prison later, you can have a phone call. |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Now I'm sure there are a few guys in there who need to be but from all that I have read there are many that don't. |
Yeah, but with the (lack of) protocols in place, how would we know who is who?
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| If someone doesn't belong in there, why the hell can't they just set them free? |
Because even if they were innocent, now they have every incentive to commit terrorism against the U.S. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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You make bleeding heart assumptions:
1. Some of the inmates are innocent. (You trust their defense lawyers, who have their own agendas, more than the government or, rather, you only give the former the benefit of the doubt.)
2. Most of the inmates are guilty by association, rather than for actually planning actively to commit terrorism. (If they were in a terrorist camp, that's sufficient collusion for me to warrant incarceration).
3. Terrorists deserve humane treatment. (We should execute the known terrorists among them after we've extracted any actionable intelligence).
4. The military actually gives a rat's azz what you think. (Why should they? Most dissenters have long ago convinced themselves that the American military is fascist. Nothing we do now will convince you otherwise). |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| and now from mcgarrett, a touch of evil. |
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Funkdafied
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Location: In Da House
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 1. Some of the inmates are innocent. (You trust their defense lawyers, who have their own agendas, more than the government or, rather, you only give the former the benefit of the doubt.) |
If it was just a defence lawyer's story versus the govt it would be quite debatable I agree. It's more about the fact that there have been no charges and zero evidence brought against many of them. That, plus the govt has lied so many times now that there is very little reason to trust them on anything, especially anything to do with terrorism. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Because even if they were innocent, now they have every incentive to commit terrorism against the U.S. |
And heaven forbid accountability be placed on THIS administration. Let's keep 'im locked up instead.
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You make bleeding heart assumptions:
1. Some of the inmates are innocent. (You trust their defense lawyers, who have their own agendas, more than the government or, rather, you only give the former the benefit of the doubt.)
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That's not an assumption, some of the prisoners ARE innocent.
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| 2. Most of the inmates are guilty by association, rather than for actually planning actively to commit terrorism. (If they were in a terrorist camp, that's sufficient collusion for me to warrant incarceration). |
Well if they are not guilty at ALL, then guilty by association is a completely moot point.
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| 3. Terrorists deserve humane treatment. (We should execute the known terrorists among them after we've extracted any actionable intelligence). |
"Known". Well what does that even mean? Why do you stipulate 'known' terrorists at Gitmo/ I would have thought only known terrorists would be there.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12354291/
curious.
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| 4. The military actually gives a rat's azz what you think. (Why should they? Most dissenters have long ago convinced themselves that the American military is fascist. Nothing we do now will convince you otherwise). |
Except prove the point?
I don't need my military to care about what I think. But my government damn well BETTER be. And since the people vote to give people control over the military, well, someone better care about what Joe Public has to say.
Although tremendous apathy and hopelessness probably help your case out a lot. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| You make bleeding heart assumptions: |
That's the first time I've been accused of having a bleeding heart.
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| 1. Some of the inmates are innocent. (You trust their defense lawyers, who have their own agendas, more than the government or, rather, you only give the former the benefit of the doubt.) |
Yes, odds are that one or two of the inmates are innocent. We have no idea, because most of the inmates were merely picked up on a tip from countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. Basically, someone called US Forces, and the CIA came and picked them up.
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| 2. Most of the inmates are guilty by association, rather than for actually planning actively to commit terrorism. (If they were in a terrorist camp, that's sufficient collusion for me to warrant incarceration). |
They weren't born in Guantanamo, McGarrett.
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| 3. Terrorists deserve humane treatment. (We should execute the known terrorists among them after we've extracted any actionable intelligence). |
Suspected terrorists deserve humane treatment.
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| 4. The military actually gives a rat's azz what you think. (Why should they? Most dissenters have long ago convinced themselves that the American military is fascist. Nothing we do now will convince you otherwise). |
Ignorance. You think the Army is on your side? Its not. Its on my side. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Our intel going into Gitmo was completely screwed. We were offering 5000 dollar bounties to Paksitani tribesmen to round up Al-qaeda and other "terrorists" in 2002. The incentive was too high for these guys to just let it go. They would turn in anybody they didn't like or had a tift with, just to get that 5000 dollars.
Don't worry McGarret. Nobody expects you to deal with points that others make. Just say that they're "leftists" or "bleeding hearts". Don't worry about content. You're a bomb thrower and no one expects anything more from you. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: 6 years of prison later, you can have a phone call. |
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| Quote: |
| If someone doesn't belong in there, why the hell can't they just set them free? |
Because even if they were innocent, now they have every incentive to commit terrorism against the U.S.[/quote]
I wonder just how much truth there is to that statement. I would wager quite a bit.
As for mcgarrett. It just kills me how its more important to be macho than to reform a system (which intentionally or not) has become a rallying cry for future jihadists.
Some people would counter that there are those islamists that are going to hate American no matter what. I don't disagree with that. Those individuals should be hunted down and killed just like any enemy.
Let's ignore the bravado, put aside the issue of administrative incompetence. You have a system that is working agaisnt the supposed goals of this administration, dismantle it. It is a total failure. If you really thought these prisoners were dangerous/a source of information wouldn't it be better to keep them at a black site or simply put a bullet in their head?
Is it just me or does it seem like the administration got together and said " Hey, do you think we can come up with a system that undermines our very own constitution, makes even our allies question our motives and sows the seeds of future terrorism?....Let's do it!" |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: 6 years of prison later, you can have a phone call. |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
Is it just me or does it seem like the administration got together and said " Hey, do you think we can come up with a system that undermines our very own constitution, makes even our allies question our motives and sows the seeds of future terrorism?....Let's do it!" |
Pretty much. Except that, by now, it should be pretty clear that Bush doesn't regard the Constitution very highly.
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| If you really thought these prisoners were dangerous/a source of information wouldn't it be better to keep them at a black site or simply put a bullet in their head? |
Many are at black sites. Putting bullets in the back of their heads would be even more barbaric.
It's upsetting. The worst part is, none of the candidates for President have outlined that they might change things. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/12/guantanamo-trial.html
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| Even if Jawad goes to trial and is found innocent, he could still remain in captivity. The U.S. military retains the right to hold indefinitely those considered to pose a threat to the United States, even if they've been cleared by Guantanamo's "military commissions." |
wtf. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| and now from mcgarrett, a touch of evil. |
If he's lucky he'll be reborn e.g. a poor Afghani Muslim ( approx. 50 years from now ).
What comes around ... |
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