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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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 Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: Were Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comments misinterpreted? |
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| Just curious I have heard his comments about Israel being wiped off the map misinterpreted? I have heard they were is there any evidence that they were? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Hasn't this been done to death several times on this forum already?
You're wasting your time. Most posters here are not mature enough to deal with this topic. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Well anyway how was that topc resolved the last time?
Who is isn't mature enough ? and why do you say so? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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I don't recal any resolution. It just decended into puerility.
There are those here who struggle with basic logic and reasoning, not being able to grasp that pointing out that a quote may have been pounced on and misinterpreted for propaganda purposes does not equate with making out Ahmadinejad to be a sweet and fluffly little bunny wabbit. As I said it's much too sophisticated a concept for many here to deal with.
Well, to play your game then, here is something to start you off: Farsi has no idiom 'to wipe something off the map.' Here is one perspective, if you are really interested in exploring this subject: Lost In Translation
I'm not interested in participating any further though. Good luck in your endevours.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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So you don't think he meant to wipe Israel off the map ? Is that right.
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| Here is one perspective, if you are really interested in exploring this subject: Lost In Translation |
that perspective is wrong.
Iran knows what those words meant . In fact it isn't in question. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Ah, I see you are a fluent speaker of Farsi then.
And you honestly truly believe Iran was declaring an intent to attack Israel? 8 years of war with Iraq was just not enough for them, eh? What a nation of loons they must be.
Well, good night. Find someone else to tell it to. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Ah, I see you are a fluent speaker of Farsi then.
And you honestly truly believe Iran was declaring an intent to attack Israel? 8 years of war with Iraq was just not enough for them, eh? What a nation of loons they must be.
Well, good night. Find someone else to tell it to. |
I think Ali Khanmani is like the Wizard of the Klans I think he might do anything.
It is clear what Iran thought those words meant. Is there any question?
so you think those words were misinterpreted? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Is this a CURRENT EVENT? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Ah, I see you are a fluent speaker of Farsi then.
And you honestly truly believe Iran was declaring an intent to attack Israel? 8 years of war with Iraq was just not enough for them, eh? What a nation of loons they must be.
Well, good night. Find someone else to tell it to. |
POSTER IN IRAN
Juan Cole ought to be honest enough to admit he was wrong and that he misled people.
But since he has zero integrity now he won't
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Farsi has no idiom 'to wipe something off the map. |
Ummm...are we really to believe that a people who have sought empire for 25 centuries has no word, phrase, expression or idiom that can be rendered 'wipe something off the map'? I guess I can believe Cyrus the Great rode up to city walls and said, 'Please, kindly surrender if you don't mind. We most earnestly wish to take away your sovereignty.' |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| This issue is hopelessly intertwined and conflated with another issue: the people who insist that a monolithic, single-minded Western media misrepresented Ahmadinejad's remarks believe that they are the only people standing between the W. Bush Administration and an Iranian war. And, as usual, those who might be conscious of this dynamic -- and many of the are not -- believe their ends justify their means. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Farsi has no idiom 'to wipe something off the map. |
Ummm...are we really to believe that a people who have sought empire for 25 centuries has no word, phrase, expression or idiom that can be rendered 'wipe something off the map'? I guess I can believe Cyrus the Great rode up to city walls and said, 'Please, kindly surrender if you don't mind. We most earnestly wish to take away your sovereignty.' |
Ya-ta, I have to hand it to you....THAT was funny, right there.
Now, go back to being a jerk, would ya? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Farsi has no idiom 'to wipe something off the map. |
Ummm...are we really to believe that a people who have sought empire for 25 centuries has no word, phrase, expression or idiom that can be rendered 'wipe something off the map'? I guess I can believe Cyrus the Great rode up to city walls and said, 'Please, kindly surrender if you don't mind. We most earnestly wish to take away your sovereignty.' |
Well, my point is that no idiom is ever a smooth translation.
The most difficult subject I ever took at uni was an introductory to translation. I would spend hours and hours agonising over just a few sentences. How best to express them? This word or this synonym, or that synonym? Remember each synomym has its own shade of meaning, even if its meaning closely resembles that of another word. This idiom or this closely related one? Extremely difficult - far more difficult than any of the advanced maths subjects I took - at least they generally had only very limited possible solutions.
In the semester break that year, just for curiosity, I went to the library and borrowed 2 famous classics in their original form, and then borrowed several translations of each. I'd read a page in its original form, and then I'd read the corresponding pages in the translations. All the translations were (in varying degree) different from each other. I really gained an appreciation for translation - it is an artform in itself, and requires extreme skill. Sometimes the sentences or passages would seem very different, in a straight linguistic sense, and would seem completely rewritten. But the translator clearly felt that they were best conveying the essence of what the original author intended. A great translator will try his/her best to minimise her/his own voice and try to speak accurately for the author, however they can never truly erase themselves from the translated work.
Now, while translating from your second language into your first language is bloody difficult as it is, translating from your first language into a second language is a bloody nightmare! I don't know if any of you are fluent in a second language, other than Gopher. I think Gopher will probably appreciate what I'm saying. Translating from first language is more advanced than translating from your second language into your mother tongue. That's also reflected in the level it's offered in university language programmes.
That 'map wiping' translation actually came from Iran itself (presumably an Iranian translator performing the tricky feat of translating from their first language into their second). From my own knowledge and experience of 'attempted' translation, that doesn't mean it must automatically be a precise representation, especially if they were working to a deadline. No doubt they had no idea their work would come under such international scrutiny, either. Perhaps they were just doing a job, and didn't do it carefully enough, just plowing through it to get it finished.
Here (from Jonathon Steele's article) is a discussion of just how tricky it is to translate that expression, especially when it must be done under the pressure of deadlines:
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Finally we come to the BBC monitoring service which every day puts out hundreds of highly respected English translations of broadcasts from all round the globe to their subscribers - mainly governments, intelligence services, thinktanks and other specialists. I approached them this week about the controversy and a spokesperson for the monitoring service's marketing unit, who did not want his name used, told me their original version of the Ahmadinejad quote was "eliminated from the map of the world".
As a result of my inquiry and the controversy generated, they had gone back to the native Farsi-speakers who had translated the speech from a voice recording made available by Iranian TV on October 29 2005. Here is what the spokesman told me about the "off the map" section: "The monitor has checked again. It's a difficult expression to translate. They're under time pressure to produce a translation quickly and they were searching for the right phrase. With more time to reflect they would say the translation should be "eliminated from the page of history".Would the BBC put out a correction, given that the issue had become so controversial, I asked. "It would be a long time after the original version", came the reply. I interpret that as "probably not", but let's see
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From people who are actually experts in Farsi/English translation, the consensus seems to be that the translation was distorted. I'd rather defer to them than Joo, a guy who probably doesn't even know a single word of Farsi.
The hysteria at the time was about Ahmadinejad apparantly threatening to attack Israel. Well, as much as he may or may not secretly dream of doing such a thing, that's not what he was saying. Nor would he have the power to do such a thing, after all, he is not the Iranian leader, and declaring war on Israel is not part of his job description. It is the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has that kind of power. Let's not get silly and pretend that Israel was really in any direct danger from Iran, who really don't have a fraction of the capabilities needed to give them even the remotest chance of a successful attack on Israel. Ahmadinejad is a tool, but he's not quite that bloody stupid.
As one translator has pointed out: "Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime." Rather he was pointing out that regimes come and go, and to take heart because one day the Zionist regime would surely disappear, just as the Shah's regime in Iran disappeared (and as Steele points out, surely he wasn't suggesting that Iran was physically blown off the face of the earth for that to happen), or the Soviet Union disappeared (no devasting war was needed there either). He wasn't hinting at future action he was going to take, rather he was expressing a desire that something (the demise of the regime) would pass, and that he expected it would.
Here is a word by word translation:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (jerusalem) bayad (must) as safheh-ye ruzgar (from the page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from). |
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spliff
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Location: Khon Kaen, Thailand
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Aremadinnerjacket is a nutter, plain and simple. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| As one translator has pointed out |
Sorry, but that looks like back-pedalling to me. And I'm not even anti-Iran.
I'm curious. Would you use the Fox News/IGTG (morally bankrupt) disclaimer of 'We report, you decide' defense of the Holocaust seminar they had there? |
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