Korean Job Discussion Forums

[idonojacs]

Would someone explain to me in plain English what an "apostille" is and how it improves or guarantees the authenticity of documents required by Korea Immigration.

The Wiki entry is not very helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille

In the States we have notaries. But having a document notarized does nothing to guarantee the authenticity of the document. It merely establishes the date of the notarization and the name of the person having the document notarized. And if you are having a document notarized by mail (can you do that?) I don't see how it would even establish identity reliably.

Notarizing a document you create yourself, such as a will or contract, can be of value because it establilshes the date the document was authenticated, and by whom.

If an apostille is similar, it seems to me it is totally worthless in, say, guaranteeing the authenticity of a diploma or CRC or drug test. But I could be wrong.

Does an apostille guarantee the authenticity of a document, say, from the FBI? How? Would the FBI confirm to the apostille that the CRC is authentic?

The wiki article mentions some processes as requiring notarization before the document is apostilled. Would we have to do that for Korea Immigration?

Is a mail order apostille possible, and of any real value?

How do you get an apostille, in general? What do they do when they apostille a document? How do you get one in Korea?

Just basic questions looking for basic answers.

Thanks!

[Ya-ta Boy]

I would like this explained as well, too.

[visviva]

I feel like this has already been addressed somewhere, but here goes, in no particular order...

1. Among countries which are party to the Hague Convention (including most of our home countries, and the ROK), an apostille counts as proof that the document is an official document issued by the government of the country in question. So in a very legalistic, immigration-officer-viewpoint sort of way, an apostille is necessary in order to recognize any foreign-government-issued document as valid.

2. In the US, apostilles are generally issued either by the State Department (for certain federal documents) or by the state governments (for state CRCs et al.), usually by the state's Secretary of State office. For more information and a state-by-state list, please see http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/hague_issues/hague_issues_562.html .

3. An apostille would be irrelevant (and impossible to obtain) for a diploma or drug test, since these are not formal government documents. However, it is valid (and possible to obtain) for a criminal record check issued by the state police.

4. An apostille is a big, shiny, colorful, and generally important-looking stamp. Methinks this is the real reason they are requiring apostilles rather than just having us pay for instant internet checks.

5. If you are blessed with a friendly state government, you can probably arrange to have the criminal record sent from the state police directly to the Secretary of State, apostilled, and sent to you. However, this is not trivial to arrange, and may involve figuring out how to provide the SoS with a prepaid international waybill.

6. A valid apostille is valid, period; it doesn't matter whether you were there in person for the apostillization or not.

7. You cannot get an apostille in Korea (well, you can get one for Korean documents, but that's neither here nor there).

8. Separate notarization shouldn't be necessary, but you'd want to check with your SoS.

[idonojacs]

Many thanks, visviva. It sounds like you know what you are talking about. This clarifies things a lot.

It still sounds like it could be difficult to get documents apostilled while still in Korea. It also sounds like it could take some time to got through this process.

Perhaps others could share their insights and experience.

While it may have been covered elsewhere, some of these threads have gotten so deep that I think it helps to get the key information in one place.

Also, I would like to see footnotes/citations for information, whenever possible. We shouldn't be taking Dave's posters' word for these new regulations.

So thanks for your url link, visviva.

I hope Korean authorities understand the proper uses of apostilles and don't go demanding them inappropriately.

[Suwoner10]

SO these Apostilles will be very easy to forge, as no one knows what they look like really. Cool.

[PastImperfect]

[Norith]

My understanding is that an apostille is never more than a confirmation that the Notary Public who notarized a specific document, is in fact a registered Notary Public of the state who issues the apostille (and has paid their dues, notary license hasn't expired, etc).

The office in your state which issues your apostille is not going to call up whatever police station that you got your CRC at and make sure that it's valid. They don't have the authority to do that, in most cases. You can have any document apostilled, because you can have any document notarized. Notarizing a document serves two purposes: you can present identification to them, and they will confirm that the information on a certain document has been verified by a check of a valid state-issued or federal-issued ID (license or passport); or you can have any document copied, and the notary public will confirm that the copy is an identical representation of the primary document that they saw. When you have your degree notarized, it's obviously for the latter reason. In fact, you can have a copy of a copy of a degree notarized, and then apostilled.

Apostilles are as big of a joke as notary publics.

[Norith]

BTW, I had a copy of my degree notarized and apostilled for my visa, about a month before the regulation changes. I carried my degree around to three different places (Korean Embassy, the Office of the Secretary of State, and my local bank (most tellers are notary publics)); nobody so much as looked at it, except perhaps to note that I was carrying around what could have been a classy gift-picture frame. Bollocks.

[pharflung]

So are you saying, North, that the notary public and apostle person did not look at the original before notarizing and apostillizing the copy?

[Norith]

That is exactly what I'm saying. I should have left it at home. The person who affixes the apostille is not supposed to look at the original, as it has no bearing on the apostille itself. I went to the sec. of state first, and they gave me a piece of paper to have the notary public notarize, basically saying that they personally made a copy of the document in question, and that the copy is a perfect representation of the document (in this case, the degree). However, I had already made two copies, and the notary public just notarized both forms that the clerk @ the sec. of state gave me, and sent me on my way. Might have noticed that I was carrying something that could have housed my degree, might not have noticed at all.

There are more than ten thousand notary publics in each state; most of them are making $12/hr or less. Probably 99% of them are only notaries because it is required for their job (most bank tellers, para-legals, etc.).

[soju pizza]

MODS! Make this a sticky!

[sojourner1]

EPIK teachers don't need apostilles. Yes, you heard me, your ears don't flap. I got this info from a Woongjin Think Big recruiter.

[idonojacs]

sojourner1:

[Khenan]

I was asked to chime in here with what I know, having done quite a bit of research on the subject as someone who will hopefully be going to Korea in the next few weeks. This is all mostly general information -

Yes, (although this is probably an affront to French-speaking people) "apostille" basically means "notorized document" in French. At least, that's what it means now in English. It's meaning is totally derived from the Hague Conventions, which were begun in Holland at the start of the 20th century.

The Hague Conventions outline a means for different States (nations) to share "public documents" with each other (i.e., your background check or any other government-issued document).

As I understand it, a government may decide for itself which documents it will assent to apostille. In the U.S., I believe that apostilles are only given for notorized documents. However, many (most, all?) agencies that issue government documents also employ notory publics, who will notorize the document upon issuance.

I don't know if many U.S. universities employ notory publics. If yours doesn't, I don't think it is possible to get an apostille for diplomas, although, as others have pointed out, it *is* possible to get an apostille attached to a notorized *copy* of a diploma. Note that, in this case, the government apostille is simply certifying that the copy looks like the original - not that the original was legitimate.

ROK became a party to the Hague Conventions this last summer, if I remember right, so they are very new to the entire idea, whereas most of our home countries have been doing this for decades. Of course, immigration officials in ROK have never seen apostilles for the most part until very recently.

I myself have had my criminal background check refused by Korean immigration. Since this is a new process, and there is a lot of confusion, at least some officials in Korea don't realize that they can't make up their own rules for apostilles. Under the Hague Conventions, no State can simply refuse to accept or recognize another State's apostille. If they do want to refuse it, they *must* first call (or perhaps contact in another way) the government that was reported as issuing the apostille. This is in essence a means to prevent fraud in creation and circulation of the apostilles. However, it is only to prevent fraud - once the issuing government acknoledges that the apostille in question is legitimate, the State has to accept it as legitimate.

Some reasons that apostilles have been refused in Korea are that:

*The apostille doesn't look like what Korean immigration thinks it's supposed to.

This is a result of the fact that there are many, many government agencies around the world that write apostilles. In the U.S., for instance, each individual state writes its own apostilles. I assume there are also several different agencies on the federal level. I don't think the S. Koreans quite realize this - they're expecting everything that comes from the U.S. to look like everything else. Which they don't.

The Hague Conventions specifically state that minor variations in the appearance of the apostilles is expected, and that this is is no basis by which to refuse an apostille.

*The apostille doesn't contain information Korean immigration wants it to, or contains information that it shouldn't.

The Hague Conventions states explicitely what information is to appear on an apostille, and I believe that pretty much all parties to the treaties comply totally. Russia is an exepction. My apostille contained contact information in the upper right hand corner of the page for my Secretary of State. Either its presence there, or the format it was presented in - they weren't entirely clear - were mentioned as reasons that my apostille was rejected. Also, I have heard of some cases where Korean immigration wanted specific things to appear on the Apostille that are not required by the Hague Conventions.

Both of these cases seem to be in violation of the Conventions, which state specifically that some additional information may be printed on the page (including contact info), and that individual States may not make their own requirements for the apostilles. I'm not sure that the ROK officials understand this point.

A recent adoption to the Conventions is that "Apostilles may not be refused in a State of production on the grounds that they do not comply with that State's national formalities and modes of issuance."

I think that last part says it all.



That may be enough for now Sorry for the long-windedness.

Feel free to PM w/ questions, but I am certainly no "certified" authority

[Norith]

The only reason that the apostille/notary process is a joke, is because the office/company/school/police precinct that issues a document does not have to be the office/company/etc that notarizes the document. In the case of degrees, it's a joke because there are so many notary publics, that had you created a fake, you could simply go to two or three notary publics, and surely one of them would just sign and stamp the document saying they made the copy. Or, you could bring in a copy of your degree (perhaps a print-out from adobe photoshop), and have them copy the copy, then notarize the copy of the copy, saying that the document they have notarized is in fact a true representation of a document that they made a copy of. The notary process is really supposed to be for filling out forms, where privacy is an issue. Say you want a CRC from your local cop shop, but you're on a long vacation out of state....you could, potentially, go to a notary public with a CRC request form, and they could notarize the document with a statement to the effect of "I have personally verified the State ID of the person who presented this document to me; it is identical to the name and address cited on this request form." Then, when the local cop shop gets it, there is no privacy issue because they can be certain that YOU have in fact requested the CRC, and not someone who just filled it out and wants your info. The same can be done to get transcripts from most colleges, as they generally refuse to give out information to someone who just calls up and says that they are you.

When verification of ID is an essential part of fulfilling some request, but it is not possible for you to present yourself to have your ID checked...that's when a notary is supposed to be used. With really important documents, perhaps even documents notarized by someone out of state, or out of country, an apostille needs to be affixed by the state government (in the U.S...not sure who does it for the rest of you folks) to ensure that the notary public who notarized your form, is in fact, a notary public. Thus, you guys can't just fill out a form and print out what you think a notary seal looks like, because they look up the notary public in the state notary database, and give a more impressive, harder to forge seal of approval.

To prove, however, that a degree was valid...you'd really need someone at your University to notarize the document, saying that they issued it, and then have an apostille affixed. That would be pretty sufficient proof that you didn't forge it. Having your bank teller stamp a piece of paper just isn't. (Of course, I doubt immigration knows what U.S. notary stamps look like, and I doubt that they know all 50 state-apostille stamps).