Korean Job Discussion Forums

[garykasparov]

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/opi_view.asp?newsIdx=21064&categoryCode=162

Just Say �No�

By David Thiessen

Recently a small group of foreigners have taken it upon themselves to form an ``association'' to, as they say, represent native English teachers (NETs) against the ``abuses'' heaped upon them by their Korean employers.

They say they want to be ``the voice'' of the foreign English teacher by ``dialoguing'' with parents, negotiating with the employers as well as the Korean government. They have set up a website and filled it with different areas of life that the Net will face upon arrival.

Is this organization a good thing? Will it help the Net in the long run? Will it make a difference? Not really as its origin is rooted in arrogance, selfishness and all the other negative characteristics of life. It was not founded to help the industry or the Korean students but to impose the Western way on a country that is not Western and who have the right to determine how their industries will be run.

I looked at their website and not only was it rife with spelling mistakes but it contained exaggerations, false accusations, misinformation and bad advice (to name a few of their errors). It is not a proper website if one wants to be ``the voice'' of the teacher but in reality it is a website for those with superiority complexes, arrogance and an elitist attitude and provides just another avenue for the crooked NET to use to whine and unjustly complain.

One poster on their discussion forum described this ``association's'' actions as ``taking a page out of the Nazi handbook'' and he/she is right. Take a close look at what they are doing and saying as their actions and words have usurped the democratic process and their self-appointed is exactly what the Nazis and other dictators have done. That poster was immediately banned from the discussion forum, which shows that the people in charge will not tolerate dissent or objective and clear thinking.

This organization is clearly not for the benefit of the industry or the students as they wish to impose their restrictions on who can or cannot be employed by this industry, which they do not own. The have taken this position without proper procedures or authority which is another tactic used by those who wish to control others.

Clearly the foundation of this organization is not in the best interests of the NET as they will not have to pay the price if a teacher follows their advice and loses out on an opportunity. You do, not them and that is a risk that is not worth the gamble.

Yes the foundation in which this organization is not set in what is good, honest, or even what is right as they seek to ``right'' perceived wrongs and make all incidents the fault of the Korean people, government and employer. They paint a very one-sided picture, pointing the finger at the Koreans forgetting that approximately 80% of the problems faced by a NET has been brought on by the NET themselves.

This is because too many people who come here want everything to be like the West and they have this sense of entitlement that the Korean country owes them for simply showing up at the airport. The Koreans do not owe the Net anything; they are providing employment, benefits and proper channels to use when there are problems in exchange for teaching.

There is a big omission in the actions of this group and the majority of Nets in this country. They pursue retribution for the alleged violations against them, demand unjust and unfair pay raises, along with many other unrealistic demands as their greed and selfishness direct their behavior.

This omission is that they forget how immigrants were and are treated in their own land and instead of pursuing their goals with arrogance and vindictiveness, they should be humbled and learn a lesson they need to take back to their own countries. The NET here only gets a taste of what it was like for people of different races or ideas experienced when they first landed and lived in the west.

Before trying to change this country, take your lessons and return to your own country and improve the treatment of all people first. When you do that then you may have the right to try and change Korea. Until that happens, this association means nothing and is nothing but hypocritical at best. At worst it is neo-Nazism as ``superior'' foreigners think they can dictate to another country what they should or shouldn't do and that is just wrong.

So when someone asks you to join this ``association'' ― JUST SAY NO.

The writer teaches English in Gyeonggi Province. He can be reached at [email protected].

[Chicoloco]

[bellum99]

David Thiessen appears to be suffering from stockholm syndrome. He has been kissing Korean ass and worshiping his masters for so long that he feels he is one of them. While I probably won't join the organization, I do feel that most of the injustice stems from the imbalance of power between the school owners and teachers. The majority of responsibility rests on the shoulders of the person abusing power..the schools.


Email him and express your opinion.

[ernie]

real quailty journalism there, davey boy...

red flags indicating a lack of journalistic integrity/training/skill:

- 'a small group of foreigners'... i.e., not a significant enough number to base an article upon
- 'it was not founded to help Korean education'... any proof of this? pure speculation is par for the course in the korean media
- 'to name a few of their errors'... why not tell us WHAT they are?!
- 'one poster on this discussion forum'... great, using anonymous posters on the intertubes as a source of news
- 'their actions and words have usurped the democratic process'... isn't the right to free assembly one of the pillars of democracy?
- 'they should be humbled and learn a lesson'... yes, revenge and intolerance is a great lesson to share with the world
- 'foreigners think they can dictate to another country'... koreans made the law, they must abide by it... logic, not 'neo-nazism'

[Bibbitybop]

While I haven't looked into the organization's website, even if the organization has "Nazi-like" tactics, employing those against the crooked monster of the hogwan system would simply be having the Nazis attacking the imperial Japanese in WWII. But I don't think the organization is as "one sided" as the author claims from what I've read about their actions on forums.


If their site is full of spelling mistakes, however, that is inexcusable.

[CentralCali]

[PRagic]

Whatever. You're part of the solution, or part of the problem. OP smells of loser.

[alex83]

Why is it that people with weak arguments are always so quick to jump to the Nazi analogies?

[laogaiguk]

[bellum99]

second post

[ardis]

[Billy Pilgrim]

Silly article. While there are without doubt a few Western teachers with superiority complexes and a complete inability to think outside the box on any issue at any time, the same can be easily said for Koreans, Japanese, Norfolk Islanders etc. I have no problem with the teachers in this country forming an organization to support each other and to highlight the ways in which Korea could make it easier for us to live here without shouting for an overhaul of an entire culture (equitable banking freedom, for instance). Just as I would have no problem with Koreans doing the same in New Zealand.

The guy who wrote the article seems to have one mighty heavy chip on his shoulder.

[PGF]

I think he wrote this article in response to being booted off of the organization's bulletin board. He mentioned being banned.

Anyway, his writing style is a bit rambling. No one will take notice of his message because it's so, um, awkwardly conveyed.
IMO

For example:

"Clearly the foundation of this organization is not in the best interests of the NET as they will not have to pay the price if a teacher follows their advice and loses out on an opportunity. You do, not them and that is a risk that is not worth the gamble. "

[bellum99]

I emailed the writer of the article. This is my email to him:


To: David Thiessen

I read your article and have a few comments. If you are an actual journalist who wishes to do a credible effort at his job, then you will attempt to see more than the side you are paid to see.



1: You said "It was not founded to help the industry or the Korean students but to impose the Western way on a country that is not Western and who have the right to determine how their industries will be run."


-- The web site clearly expects the employment of Native English Teacher's to simply follow Korean law. The abuses in Korea against Native English Teachers are in violation of existing Korean labor laws. These abuses include:



Failure to provide medical insurance

Failure to provide severance upon completion of the contract

Failure to pay the salary on the agreed upon date

Failure to follow legal contracts in regards to payment times and notice of firing



No one expects Koreans to be Westerers but we do expect them to follow their own laws.



2: You said "This organization is clearly not for the benefit of the industry or the students as they wish to impose their restrictions on who can or cannot be employed by this industry, which they do not own. The have taken this position without proper procedures or authority which is another tactic used by those who wish to control others."



---There is no legal recourse for many people who come to Korea. The laws do allow for the forming of peaceful groups but the actual application of the laws (in violation of written laws) forbid the forming of these groups by people who are not of Korean heritage. (This actually sounds more Nazi-like.)




3: You said "approximately 80% of the problems faced by a NET has been brought on by the NET themselves."



--- You are using statistics based upon no actual data. You cannot just invent statistics.

4: You said "This is because too many people who come here want everything to be like the West and they have this sense of entitlement that the Korean country owes them for simply showing up at the airport. The Koreans do not owe the Net anything; they are providing employment, benefits and proper channels to use when there are problems in exchange for teaching."



---The channels do not function properly and there is no enforcement of the laws upon the school owners. The legal channels do not have the legal power to enforce anything. I would like you to go to the pension office and labor office and talk to them. Explain some of the common problems that teachers have and ask them to tell you what can be done. Then write about legal channels being available.


5: You said "There is a big omission in the actions of this group and the majority of Nets in this country. They pursue retribution for the alleged violations against them, demand unjust and unfair pay raises, along with many other unrealistic demands as their greed and selfishness direct their behavior."


---It is not unfair to expect proper pay raises to help alleviate the costs of inflation and to reflect the different levels of qualifiactions. In every other industry there is a pay increase but not for Native English Teachers.


6: You said" This omission is that they forget how immigrants were and are treated in their own land and instead of pursuing their goals with arrogance and vindictiveness, they should be humbled and learn a lesson they need to take back to their own countries. The NET here only gets a taste of what it was like for people of different races or ideas experienced when they first landed and lived in the west."


---In what way does it possibly matter how people were treated 100 years ago in America. Laws were not in place at that time and the people were undeducated. It is like saying slavery is okay now as long as it is against whites..to give them a taste of what it was like.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are simply ignorant of what conditions are like here in Korea. I would like to think that you wanted to be published more than you wanted to be fair and upon further investigation would be willing to change your mind. Your writing is not an accurate reflection of the situation in Korea and I urge you to investigate more than you have done. I think you did not read this email and only deleted it but I hope I am wrong.

[bellum99]

This is his email back to me today:




>
> I read your article and have a few comments. If you are an actual
> journalist who wishes to do a credible effort at his job, then you will
> attempt to see more than the side you are paid to see.

**** look for the asteriks. first off, i am not paid to write and i
have many, many years of experience to fall back on plus research at the
NEt websites. I will cut out the parts you quoted to save space and
address your points.
>
>
>
> 1
>
> -- The web site clearly expects the employment of Native English
> Teacher's to simply follow Korean law. The abuses in Korea against
> Native English Teachers are in violation of existing Korean labor laws.
> These abuses include:
>
> Failure to provide medical insurance
> Failure to provide severance upon completion of the contract
> Failure to pay the salary on the agreed upon date
> Failure to follow legal contracts in regards to payment times and notice
> of firing
>
> No one expects Koreans to be Westerers but we do expect them to follow
> their own laws.
***i went through their website and it is all window dressing and they
are not being discriminating when it comes to applying those charges
they place all koreans in the same bundle. if they do any exclusion it
is cursory. also they did not research any complaints by NEts but
accepted their stories on face value alone. They also do not have any
legal right to make koreans abide by their laws plus what response
action can they advocate? basically it amounts to losing a job.
>
> 2: >
> ---There is no legal recourse for many people who come to Korea. The
> laws do allow for the forming of peaceful groups but the actual
> application of the laws (in violation of written laws) forbid the forming
> of these groups by people who are not of Korean heritage. (This actually
> sounds more Nazi-like.)
***there are organizations to go to which are set up to help the NEt.
There should be no foreigner run association as the dangers are too many
given the mentality of those who come here to teach. we have both seen
such things on the website forums. too many people advocate unrealistic
reqirements when the koreans have it right.
>
>
> 3: >
> --- You are using statistics based upon no actual data. You cannot just
> invent statistics.
***I am not making up figures. it might be a bit high but i ave done
research into this and have found it is the foreigner or their attitude
that has caused too many problems--i.e. the banking complaint article.
then you have many other foreigners piggy backing complaints in hopes of
getting some type of reward when nothing has happened to them.
>
>
> 4: >
> ---The channels do not function properly and there is no enforcement of
> the laws upon the school owners. The legal channels do not have the
> legal power to enforce anything. I would like you to go to the pension
> office and labor office and talk to them. Explain some of the common
> problems that teachers have and ask them to tell you what can be done.
> Then write about legal channels being available.
****one of the main things i have found is that these same violations
happen in the west and not one NEt seems to have returned to their own
country to clean up their own problems immigrants face. this is just
pure hypocrisy in action. from whati understand, thepension office
fights for the NEt because the NEts are their clients. They do do their
job, just because some claims were not in the favor of the foreigner doe
sit mean these offices were wrong.
>
>
> 5: > ---It is not unfair to expect proper pay raises to help alleviate the
> costs of inflation and to reflect the different levels of qualifiactions.
> In every other industry there is a pay increase but not for Native
> English Teachers.
***i did a study on salaries of teachers in america and canada. Korea,
with its free apartment and year-end bonus plus cheaper medical coverage
and other benefits are well within the pack as some states paid a lot
lower for full time work than NEts get here for part time duties. Soory
but the NEt has no argument here andif they do not like the pay, don't
take the job.
>
>
> 6:
>
> ---In what way does it possibly matter how people were treated 100 years
> ago in America. Laws were not in place at that time and the people were
> undeducated. It is like saying slavery is okay now as long as it is
> against whites..to give them a taste of what it was like.
**** this problem is not just 100 years ago, it still takes place
everyday in the west. there is no slavery here, you have the option to
quit and go elsewhere, slaves didn't.
>
>
> I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are
> simply ignorant of what conditions are like here in Korea. I would like
> to think that you wanted to be published more than you wanted to be fair
> and upon further investigation would be willing to change your mind.
> Your writing is not an accurate reflection of the situation in Korea and
> I urge you to investigate more than you have done. I think you did not
> read this email and only deleted it but I hope I am wrong.
***don't as i am not ignorant of what takes place here and do know that
the foriegner unjustly and unfairly whine and complain. the koreans owe
you nothing as you have signed a contract agreeing to the terms. you
don't like it, no one is twisting your arm to sign the contract.

i do not need to change my mind as i know first hand what foreigners do
and what they are capable of doing. this association is wrong, it has
been started with the wrong motivations and attitudes and it will cause
more problms than it can hope to solve. it is better that you negotiate
with your school on the private level than make a federal case out of it
which would hurt more people than you.

sincerely

Dr. David T.
--
dr. david tee
[email protected]

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