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Conspiracy Theories
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regicide



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Conspiracy Theories Reply with quote

Conspiracy theories arise from evidence. After the government releases an explanation of a particular event, a conspiracy theory is only born because evidence exists to disprove their explanation, or at least call it into question. There's nothing insane about it, unless you define sanity as believing whatever the government tells you. In light of the fact that our government lies to us regularly, I would define believing everything they tell you as utter stupidity.

Everyone has heard, and has probably used the term "conspiracy theorist," and the fact of the term being in common use, also indicates that we generally agree on what it means. I saw a movie by that name, and the title character was a raving lunatic who kept his food in thermoses with combination locks to reduce his chances of being poisoned by imaginary enemies.

Regardless of how the stupid movie turned out, what's important here is the common perception people have of someone to whom that label is applied, and just as important, is who it is that applies the label. The common perception is that someone who is labeled a "conspiracy theorist" is suffering from some type of psychological disorder, and that label is usually applied to people by our government, and our news media. The next thing to consider, is that the label is applied to anyone who questions our government's version of events in any matter. Doesn't it logically follow that the media are teaching us to assume that anyone who questions the government is insane? When that label is applied to a person, doesn't it become easy to dismiss everything they say without even hearing it? How convenient for them.

I think the label first became widely used to slander people who questioned the details surrounding the JFK assassination, and forty years later, there aren't too many thinking people who still believe the Warren Commission's "lone gunman" explanation. That explanation is doubted by everyone who has taken the time to look into the details, and believed only by people who refuse to.

Now look at this: Gopher is calling us pederasts and drug abusers since we don't believe everything the government tells us. This is exactly the nonsense and closed mindedness that we need to be fearful of.

Gopher wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
You seem to be accused of that by a fair number of people on this board.


ROFL.

There you go again, taking your reality-check from posters like BLT...

Bucheon bum: a fair number of people on this board believe that the W. Bush Adminstration perpetrated 9/11, that America is a fascist country, that Michael Moore speaks a well-reasoned and well-considered discourse, and that Ron Paul ought to be the next President of the United States, among other things. This collection of individuals also exists within a larger socio-professional group of expats that seems to produce an interesting amount of pederasts and drug abusers. You say you are beginning grad school. I hope you pick up better critical-thinking skills soon -- particularly where establishing credible baselines and/or index points are concerned.

bucheon bum wrote:
Excuse me loose ends for this digression from the topic at hand.


By all means, Bucheon bum, do not let me stand between you and this never-before-seen thread treating the 9/11 conspiracy charges...Carry on.


SCARY STUFF: "This collection of individuals also exists within a larger socio-professional group of expats that seems to produce an interesting amount of pederasts and drug abusers."
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Conspiracy theories arise from evidence.


I don't agree. They arise from skepticism gone haywire.

I think the normal person hears a government report, adjusts the statistics by 2 or 3 percentage points, tilts the picture back the other way just a bit and tries to eliminate the natural spin; after all, everyone tries to present his case in the best possible light. Perfectly understandable.

A conspiracy theorist notices something, it doesn't seem to matter much what it is because they've already decided 'government' cannot be trusted, and creates the most cynical, sinister explanation possible.

However, I will agree that
Quote:
SCARY STUFF: "This collection of individuals also exists within a larger socio-professional group of expats that seems to produce an interesting amount of pederasts and drug abusers."
is uncalled for.

If you asked any ten regular posters on the CE forum to list some qualities associated with that poster, 'temperate speech' would not be on the list of many of them.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the time I don't take conspiracy theorists seriously and enjoy poking fun at them. But there is a serious side to it all, especially as I'm getting the impression that there are more and more of these people.

I was reminded of the story of Chicken Little and looked it up on the internet. It's been quite a few decades since I read it and have forgotten all the details. What I came across was the Wiki article, which said something that struck me as going to the heart of the danger of conspiracy theories:

"The sky is falling," has passed into the English language as a common idiom indicating a hysterical or mistaken belief that disaster is imminent... In other versions the moral is usually interpreted to mean "do not believe everything you are told". In the latter case, it could well be a cautionary political tale: Chicken Little jumps to a conclusion and whips the populace into mass hysteria, which the unscrupulous fox uses to manipulate them for his own benefit."

It's the bolded part that got me thinking: Are the numbers of conspiracy theorists so large now that they offer an unscrupulous politician an opening to do some real damage?
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loose_ends



Joined: 23 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories Reply with quote

regicide wrote:
Conspiracy theories arise from evidence. After the government releases an explanation of a particular event, a conspiracy theory is only born because evidence exists to disprove their explanation, or at least call it into question. There's nothing insane about it, unless you define sanity as believing whatever the government tells you. In light of the fact that our government lies to us regularly, I would define believing everything they tell you as utter stupidity.

Everyone has heard, and has probably used the term "conspiracy theorist," and the fact of the term being in common use, also indicates that we generally agree on what it means. I saw a movie by that name, and the title character was a raving lunatic who kept his food in thermoses with combination locks to reduce his chances of being poisoned by imaginary enemies.

Regardless of how the stupid movie turned out, what's important here is the common perception people have of someone to whom that label is applied, and just as important, is who it is that applies the label. The common perception is that someone who is labeled a "conspiracy theorist" is suffering from some type of psychological disorder, and that label is usually applied to people by our government, and our news media. The next thing to consider, is that the label is applied to anyone who questions our government's version of events in any matter. Doesn't it logically follow that the media are teaching us to assume that anyone who questions the government is insane? When that label is applied to a person, doesn't it become easy to dismiss everything they say without even hearing it? How convenient for them.

I think the label first became widely used to slander people who questioned the details surrounding the JFK assassination, and forty years later, there aren't too many thinking people who still believe the Warren Commission's "lone gunman" explanation. That explanation is doubted by everyone who has taken the time to look into the details, and believed only by people who refuse to.

Now look at this: Gopher is calling us pederasts and drug abusers since we don't believe everything the government tells us. This is exactly the nonsense and closed mindedness that we need to be fearful of.

Gopher wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
You seem to be accused of that by a fair number of people on this board.


ROFL.

There you go again, taking your reality-check from posters like BLT...

Bucheon bum: a fair number of people on this board believe that the W. Bush Adminstration perpetrated 9/11, that America is a fascist country, that Michael Moore speaks a well-reasoned and well-considered discourse, and that Ron Paul ought to be the next President of the United States, among other things. This collection of individuals also exists within a larger socio-professional group of expats that seems to produce an interesting amount of pederasts and drug abusers. You say you are beginning grad school. I hope you pick up better critical-thinking skills soon -- particularly where establishing credible baselines and/or index points are concerned.

bucheon bum wrote:
Excuse me loose ends for this digression from the topic at hand.


By all means, Bucheon bum, do not let me stand between you and this never-before-seen thread treating the 9/11 conspiracy charges...Carry on.


SCARY STUFF: "This collection of individuals also exists within a larger socio-professional group of expats that seems to produce an interesting amount of pederasts and drug abusers."


Gopher, this is the second time your comments have been labeled:scary.

something to think about perhaps.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Most of the time I don't take conspiracy theorists seriously and enjoy poking fun at them. But there is a serious side to it all, especially as I'm getting the impression that there are more and more of these people.


Most of the time I don't take people-never-plan-anything-together theorists seriously. And, if the consequences were not so serious, I would find it absolutely hilarious that there are still people who believe politicians! OK, sometimes they tell the truth but it is usually just a coincidence, or before they have thought better about it.

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
It's the bolded part that got me thinking: Are the numbers of conspiracy theorists so large now that they offer an unscrupulous politician an opening to do some real damage?


How comforting it is to know that until now no politician has done any "real damage." Rolling Eyes
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cbclark4



Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we get little self moderation here.

This is not a current event.

This is an awful topic and quite redundant.

The operative word is "Current" when we speak of current event we
usually think of something that is in the news, not the most overwhelming
current flamage available.
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Pligganease



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Conspiracy theories arise from evidence.


I don't agree. They arise from skepticism gone haywire.


Really, though.

When trying to find an explanation for something, usually the simplest and most logical explanation is the best. Most conspiracy theories follow the exact opposite theory and claim that the simplest, most logical explanation is incorrect.

Example:

There is a room with a cat in it. There is a broken glass on the floor. The cat has a slight cut on it's paw.

Sane Person: The cat jumped onto the table and knocked the glass off the table. Then, the cat stepped on the glass and cut it's foot.

Conspiracy Theorist: Michael Vick put a dog in the room with the cat just to watch them fight. However, he didn't realize the viciousness of the cat. The dog, in a desperate attempt to escape from the cat, knocked the glass off the table. The cat killed and ate the dog, leaving no trace. The clear evidence of the fight ans subsequent consumption of the dog is the fact that the cat is licking blood off its paw.
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Dome Vans
Guest




PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Conspiracy theories arise from evidence.


I don't agree. They arise from skepticism gone haywire.


Really, though.

When trying to find an explanation for something, usually the simplest and most logical explanation is the best. Most conspiracy theories follow the exact opposite theory and claim that the simplest, most logical explanation is incorrect.

Example:

There is a room with a cat in it. There is a broken glass on the floor. The cat has a slight cut on it's paw.

Sane Person: The cat jumped onto the table and knocked the glass off the table. Then, the cat stepped on the glass and cut it's foot.

Conspiracy Theorist: Michael Vick put a dog in the room with the cat just to watch them fight. However, he didn't realize the viciousness of the cat. The dog, in a desperate attempt to escape from the cat, knocked the glass off the table. The cat killed and ate the dog, leaving no trace. The clear evidence of the fight ans subsequent consumption of the dog is the fact that the cat is licking blood off its paw.


Awful example there Pikanese and way too extreme even for your ilk. Sorry.

Let's look at the example from the Simpsons, I'm sure you'll understand that one.

Marge cooks a cake and leaves it to cool down. She goes out and when she comes back the dog is sat next to the empty plate.

You: The Dog ate the cake.

Me: Let's not assume that the dog ate the cake it can't be that simple. There must be another reason.

Real Reason:
Bart had photographic evidence of Homer coming in the kitchen and eating the cake.

Is it really that simple?

Still, you can still believe that you're right. Its ok. We'll let you think that, we don't want to stress you out. Nice simple life. Nod head!
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loose_ends



Joined: 23 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Conspiracy theories arise from evidence.


I don't agree. They arise from skepticism gone haywire.


Really, though.

When trying to find an explanation for something, usually the simplest and most logical explanation is the best. Most conspiracy theories follow the exact opposite theory and claim that the simplest, most logical explanation is incorrect.

Example:

There is a room with a cat in it. There is a broken glass on the floor. The cat has a slight cut on it's paw.

Sane Person: The cat jumped onto the table and knocked the glass off the table. Then, the cat stepped on the glass and cut it's foot.

Conspiracy Theorist: Michael Vick put a dog in the room with the cat just to watch them fight. However, he didn't realize the viciousness of the cat. The dog, in a desperate attempt to escape from the cat, knocked the glass off the table. The cat killed and ate the dog, leaving no trace. The clear evidence of the fight ans subsequent consumption of the dog is the fact that the cat is licking blood off its paw.


assuming the simple answer is the probobly the best answer also leads to very bad science.

if we make assumptions based on simple cause and effect patterns, scientific hypothesis can never truly be explored to its fullest. Instead it becomes a quest to explain an assumed cuase and effect pattern within our physical world.

The simple answer is not always, the best answer. That is what people say when they don't want to provide any support for a hypothesis they know is incorrect.

bad science all around.
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deadman



Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Most of the time I don't take conspiracy theorists seriously and enjoy poking fun at them. But there is a serious side to it all, especially as I'm getting the impression that there are more and more of these people.

I was reminded of the story of Chicken Little and looked it up on the internet.


I prefer the James Thurber version, from James Thurbers Fables which ends something like...
Quote:

.. the other barnyard animals looked at Chicken Little and laughed. "You silly chicken!", said the turkey. "It was just an acorn that fell on your head!"

Just then there was a great roar as blue shards of sky and great chunks of crystallised cloud crashed down into the farmyard, killing Chicken Little and the turkey and all the other animals because the heaven actually were falling down.

Moral: It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they did.


I guess that's the difference between you and me!


Ya-ta Boy wrote:
It's the bolded part that got me thinking: Are the numbers of conspiracy theorists so large now that they offer an unscrupulous politician an opening to do some real damage?


Why do you think numbers are growing?

[my opinion: increased communication makes it possible to fool less of the people for less of the time}

Damage to who or what? (follow that thought)
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Pligganease



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dome Vans wrote:
Awful example there Pikanese and way too extreme even for your ilk. Sorry.

Let's look at the example from the Simpsons, I'm sure you'll understand that one.

Marge cooks a cake and leaves it to cool down. She goes out and when she comes back the dog is sat next to the empty plate.

You: The Dog ate the cake.

Me: Let's not assume that the dog ate the cake it can't be that simple. There must be another reason.

Real Reason:
Bart had photographic evidence of Homer coming in the kitchen and eating the cake.

Is it really that simple?

Still, you can still believe that you're right. Its ok. We'll let you think that, we don't want to stress you out. Nice simple life. Nod head!


So we now must add "Inability to make a comparable analogy" to "Inability to read" and "Overlooks facts" when describing Dumb, sorry, Dome Vans.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories Reply with quote

regicide wrote:
Conspiracy theories arise from evidence. After the government releases an explanation of a particular event, a conspiracy theory is only born because evidence exists to disprove their explanation, or at least call it into question.

There's nothing insane about it, unless you define sanity as believing whatever the government tells you. In light of the fact that our government lies to us regularly, I would define believing everything they tell you as utter stupidity.


Blindly believing ANYTHING ANYONE tells us is stupid.

You ever heard of SOLON?

Some wicked men are rich, some good are poor;
We will not change our virtue for their store:
Virtue's a thing that none can take away,
But money changes owners all the day

He would likely very much agree with you reg. Check him out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solon

Every responsible citizens' sacred duty is to remain vigilant & awake.

ALWAYS QUESTION THE "OFFICIAL" LINE.

Keep em' honest. Hold these duplicitious bastards accountable.
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
assuming the simple answer is the probobly the best answer also leads to very bad science.


The answer which requires the least assumptions is normally the best. To propose another more complicated answer requiring more assumptions you need better evidence.

For most conspiracies I don't see the evidence and I don't think its probable that they could be kept secret by so many people.

For example whatever number of hijackers in 911 vs hundreds maybe thousands of people involved in a conspiracy. To sell me on the conspiracy therefore, your evidence would have to be overwhelming.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do you think numbers are growing?

[my opinion: increased communication makes it possible to fool less of the people for less of the time}

Damage to who or what? (follow that thought)


As I say, I don't know that they are growing; it's just an impression I have. It may be the result of the number of threads here at Dave's with one conspiracy theory or another. It may be because I spent several hours this week reading some truly, truly wacko sites.

I don't really agree that increased communication has made fooling people less possible. There is an old saying that goes something like this: A lie can travel all the way around the world before the truth gets its shoes on. Having been a high school teacher, I know how easy it is to trick kids. A lot of people are willing to believe what anyone tells them. It is important to be skeptical. But I firmly believe that conspiracy theories occur when skepticism goes haywire.

I think the essay by Manner of Speaking (which I agree with) speaks very well to the point about damage.

My take: A few weeks ago I read something somewhere that said 50 years ago the majority of people generally trusted the government. (It stated some statistic, but I don't remember it.) Then it said today the number is much lower. This is clearly true.

The government is partly responsible for bringing this on itself. Eisenhower lied when he said we didn't have spy planes over the Soviet Union, but the downing of Francis Gary Powers proved him wrong. Kennedy saying we were not involved with the Bay of Pigs until it was proven wrong. Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Nixon's 'I am not a crook'...

But I think the problem is greater than what can be traced to those lies. I agree that programs like X-Files and all the others that rely on conspiracies for plots lead people into this kind of thinking. I think the media attention to nonsense like von Daniken and Nostradomus contribute. I think these conspiracy theories contribute by getting people confused about what is true.

So one part of the damage is to the social fabric. I think extreme cynicism about the government is very dangerous. I'm reminded of John Brown. He gave up on the government and decided to correct the slavery problem himself.
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its always funny that in these shows, the guy who everybody thinks is crazy is actually right..the lone nut. In real life actually most people probably agree with him, but he's wrong. Wierd contrast.
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