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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: General Petraeus frustrates Senate |
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The Petraeus fan club convenes
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"A year ago, the president said we couldn't withdraw because there was too much violence," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.). "Now he says we can't afford to withdraw because violence is down." Asked Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.): "Where do we go from here?"
Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) said: "I think people want a sense of what the end is going to look like."
"We're a generous people," said Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.), "but our patience is not unlimited." |
Did you get a look at the parties the critics hail from? Nevertheless, Petraeus has one significant backer:
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| Several Republicans were effusive in their praise for Petraeus, Crocker and the administration's policy. "We are no longer staring into the abyss of defeat," said Sen. John McCain (Ariz.). Instead, the presumed GOP presidential nominee said that "success is within reach." |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| Competitive Myth-Making, Twenty-First Century Edition; a.k.a. Vietnam: the Rematch. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| "We are no longer staring into the abyss of defeat," said Sen. John McCain (Ariz.). Instead, the presumed GOP presidential nominee said that "success is within reach." |
McCain was saying this kind of stuff even before the surge began. It's basically what he's psychologically hardwired to say, regardless of what's actually happening on the ground.
Maybe the US should stay in Iraq for another hundred years. Maybe they should pull out tomorrow. But one thing that will not be helpful in making this decision is McCain's trademark brand of dopey optimism. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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I agree with this. McCain's views on Iraq are not entirely reliable. I would add that we should also consider ejecting others' trademark brand of knee-jerk pessimism from the overall discourse.
Neither get us very far with respect to actual ground conditions and developing realistic options that the American govt might follow. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
I agree with this. McCain's views on Iraq are not entirely reliable. I would add that we should also consider ejecting others' trademark brand of knee-jerk pessimism from the overall discourse.
Neither get us very far with respect to actual ground conditions and developing realistic options that the American govt might follow. |
To be fair to McCain, I think he's scared to death of this happening in Iraq. For someone who invested so much in Vietnam, I don't think he could ever stomach seeing history repeating itself. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| For someone who invested so much in Vietnam, I don't think he could ever stomach seeing history repeating itself. |
Yes, but McCain not wanting another Fall Of Saigon doesn't in-and-of-itself make another FOS any less likely to occur. His own feelings about Vietnam should have no bearing on a dispassionate analysis of the situation in Iraq. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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History does not repeat itself. Vietnam and Iraq are different things. In any case, a sudden and complete American withdrawal and/or defeat, even a perceived defeat, in Iraq would enable an Al Qaeda base of operations and an Iranian sphere of influence in the Middle East -- these represent two separate things. We cannot say exactly what this might mean for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, although I think an Israeli-Iranian War would not be long in coming, and it might involve nuclear weapons. American interests would suffer losses, then. I believe McCain and Petraeus understand this. I believe Clinton does, too. I do not believe that Obama and the antiwar crowd do.
By the way, what is wrong with moving in this direction...?
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| Petraeus said he has recommended to President Bush that the planned withdrawal of the five "surge" combat brigades by the end of July be followed by a 45-day hiatus for "consolidation and evaluation." Then, Petraeus said, he would begin "a process of assessment to examine the conditions on the ground" and determine whether to recommend "further reductions as conditions permit." |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| In any case, a sudden and complete American withdrawal and/or defeat, even a perceived defeat, in Iraq would enable an Al Qaeda base of operations and an Iranian sphere of influence in the Middle East |
I believe it would be more accurate to say that the American invasion enabled an Al Qaeda base of operations and an Iranian sphere of influence in the Middle East. In case you haven't noticed, both of those things are already happening and it is highly questionable whether any American action can reverse the trends. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| History does not repeat itself. |
Ahh yes. That's a famous quote right? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| For someone who invested so much in Vietnam, I don't think he could ever stomach seeing history repeating itself. |
Yes, but McCain not wanting another Fall Of Saigon doesn't in-and-of-itself make another FOS any less likely to occur. His own feelings about Vietnam should have no bearing on a dispassionate analysis of the situation in Iraq. |
Well, he's running for President now. I don't think he's going to turn his back on his position now, especially since he backed the surge.
Say what you will about McCain, but given everything I know about him, I have a great deal of sympathy for his position. I just oppose that position. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| History does not repeat itself. Vietnam and Iraq are different things. In any case, a sudden and complete American withdrawal and/or defeat, even a perceived defeat, in Iraq would enable an Al Qaeda base of operations and an Iranian sphere of influence in the Middle East -- these represent two separate things. We cannot say exactly what this might mean for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, although I think an Israeli-Iranian War would not be long in coming, and it might involve nuclear weapons. American interests would suffer losses, then. I believe McCain and Petraeus understand this. I believe Clinton does, too. I do not believe that Obama and the antiwar crowd do. |
While I respect Gophers opinions I just can't reconcile myslef with these statements. There would not be an al-qaeda base of operations in Iraq if it wasn't for the initial invasion. Secondly I don't even buy the threat of al-qaeda having a base of operations.
If having a base of operations is so integral to al-qaeda being able to carry out operations against us why are we letting them off the hook in afghanistan? It does'nt need a "base of operations" to carry out the kinds of attacks it wants to. Al-qaeda could simply send a lone guy into a business deal to buy a nuke. What "base of operation" is necessary in that? Every country in the world could magically become a liberal democracy and terrorists would still find places to hatch their schemes.
Secondly, Just how evil are these Iranians? The current iranian regime has been in power for decades. Just how many terrorist attacks have they launched against America proper? How many hezzbollah have been trained in Iran to blow up a JC Pennys or Walmart? Iran has done nothing but protect and try and project power withing their sphere of influence. Nothing more or less than most regional powers do. The US lamenting Iran projecting power within their sphere of influence smacks of hipocracy doesn't it? Does the fact they accomplish their goals through the funding militias and terrorist activities make it any more or less repugnant than superpowers using brute military force? Innocent people die in terrorist bombings, they have no warning and no defense. Are you suggesting the farmer whose house gets hit with a thousand pound bomb is somehow less of a victim? |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| History does not repeat itself. Vietnam and Iraq are different things. |
Correct, so please allow me to qualify my statement. These are different times, Vietnam and Iraq are different lands and these are two different wars. Indeed, we live in a different world nowadays. However, McCain, as an old warrior, hasn't forgotten the lessons of Vietnam and he probably sees a fall of Baghdad to extremists as being analogous to 29 April '75. I agree that we cannot abandon our friends in Iraq like we abandoned them in South Vietnam. IOW, I think the FoS is something that is in the back of McCain's mind.
By the way, what is wrong with moving in this direction...?
| Quote: |
| Petraeus said he has recommended to President Bush that the planned withdrawal of the five "surge" combat brigades by the end of July be followed by a 45-day hiatus for "consolidation and evaluation." Then, Petraeus said, he would begin "a process of assessment to examine the conditions on the ground" and determine whether to recommend "further reductions as conditions permit." |
Nothing wrong with it. Petraeus is a brilliant man and a brilliant general. I think he wants to do more but he is under a lot of pressure, even by the JCS, to start wrapping things up. Gen. Petraeus has even said that if we fail now, we will end up being forced back to Iraq under even worse conditions. I say we must finish the job in Iraq and work towards the liberty of Iraq. We just must make sure that Iraqis are capable of defending their own liberty before we sever their dependence on us. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| There would not be an al-qaeda base of operations in Iraq if it wasn't for the initial invasion. |
I do not know if you stand with the antiwar crowd and I will not assume that you do, even though this sounds like something one of them would say. In any case, this has nothing to do with my point. I did not and do not support the war. But we are there, the damage has been done, it could get even worse, and the sudden withdraw that the antiwar crowd wants would be a foolish thing, as I have outlined above.
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Secondly, Just how evil are these Iranians? |
But what communicated to you that I was passing good vs. evil judgement on the Iranian govt? This has nothing to do with my position.
The Iranian govt aims to establish a sphere of influence in the Middle East. It has run covert operations there expressly aimed against American and Israeli security and economic interests since 1979, the year it seized the American embassy and its personnel in Tehran.
This is neither good nor evil. It simply is. And it runs contrary to American interests in the Middle East. That is my point. No more no less.
We have a right to chose sides. If you chose to defend the Iranian position, that is your prerogative. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| Gen. Petraeus has even said that if we fail now, we will end up being forced back to Iraq under even worse conditions. I say we must finish the job in Iraq... |
I wholly agree. For this reason, I continue to support McCain and Petraeus. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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To me, it seemed that you equated a pull out of iraq with an inherit establishment of a base of operation for al-qaeda in Iraq and an increased sphere of influence for Iran. I took your position to be one of disapproval with each of those results.
I merely pose this question. Is an establishment of an al-qeada base of operations in Iraq a forgone conclusion if America withdraws? If so, really how is that different from the base of operations they had/continue to have in Afghanistan? Personally I see involvement in Iraq a bigger boost to al-qaeda recruitment than a deterent.
I'm all for sticking up for friends and not turning your back on them but I ask you this. Which of our friends are we sticking up for there? The sunnis who were supposed to be our friends right? You know the one's who we freed from years of oppression from the Bathists. Unfortunate that a little thing called the Mahdi army is throwing things out of whack. Our good friends the Kurds? The very same people that have been accused of waging a prolonged terrorist campaign against another allie of ours the Turks? Am I not mistaken that the majority of Iraqis want the US out of their country? So, just who are these friends that we are sticking up for?
For the life of me I don't understand how plopping down pro-American government, not backed by the will of the average Iraqi, is supposed to bring peace and stability to the region.
It sounds like a nice idea, if you are intent on creating a catalyst for continual state of conflict for the next 30 years.
I don't support the war in Iraq. Why? Because it was based on a false premise. It was based on the premise that we are in a "war against terrorism." An absurd premise to base a foreign policy on. |
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