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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Olympic Torch to make its way through Tibet |
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Map of torch route
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Torch lit in Olympia on 24 March and taken on five-day relay around Greece to Athens
After handover ceremony, it is taken to Beijing on 31 March to begin a journey of 136,800 km (85,000 miles) around the world
Torch arrives in Macau on 3 May. After three-month relay all around China, it arrives in Beijing for opening ceremony on 8 August |
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China has reaffirmed its commitment to take the Olympic torch through Tibet despite strong international pressure.
Tibet's Chinese-backed governor said he would take personal responsibility for the torch's safety and "severely punish" all who tried to obstruct it.
Qiangba Puncog's remarks came as hundreds of pro-Tibet protesters marched through San Francisco ahead of the torch relay there. |
And even Richard Gere has chimed in:
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| "They talk a lot about harmonious society - this is a fake version of harmonious society, The game plan of bringing this torch to Tibet, as if it was a harmonious society, is so patently false and insulting to the Tibetans." |
Honestly, does anyone think these protesters' hijinks will accomplish anything? Surely, there are other ways that are more productive to help the Tibetan people. Tackling the torchbearer, dousing the torch with water and hanging signs from the golden gate bridge seem like rather meaningless, and even silly, gestures to me. What do you think is the best way to improve human rights in Tibet?
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the best way to improve human rights in tibet would be if a group of ninja monks kidnapped the torch and held it hostage. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think Richard Gere should shut the hell up.
That is all. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. Ninjas, cool. Pious monks, cool. Ninja Monks. Need more be said? 
On a more serious note. What can be done to help the people of Tibet? Constant, respectful relations with China. Sure the regime may be "bad" but they are there to stay and we have to deal with it. If we can't swallow our pride and do that, or if we are REALLY so indignant about the way China is treating Tibetans, then sanctions or war with China. All this bleeding heart, western "outrage" is pathetic and laughable.
Tibet was no shangri-la before the Chinese took control. In fact, under different circumstances the world would probably be protesting the Theocracy in Tibet and the way it treated is peasantry. I posted once a small excerpt of what life was like in Tibet under the Tibetan Theocracy. One minimal attempt by IGTG to explain it away and it was totally ignored. Not a single "pro-Tibet" supporter was capable of responding.
Last edited by yawarakaijin on Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care if it changes anything in Tibet. The protests embarrass China. Good enough for me.
The protests might also make the IOC less inclined to award the Olympics to an authoritarian government in the future. That would be a good thing too. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| On a more serious note. What can be done to help the people of Tibet? Constant, respectful relations with China. Sure the regime may be "bad" but they are there to stay and we have to deal with it. If we can't swallow our pride and do that, or if we are REALLY so indignant about the the China is treating Tibetans than sanctions or war with China. All this bleeding heart, western "outrage" is pathetic and laughable. |
Just wait until the torch makes its way through Canberra. I think there will be a lot of bleeding-heart clueless protesters there. Hell, even K-rudd (and isn't he fluent in Chinese, also?) said he's thinking of boycotting the games.  |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The torch comes through Seoul on April 27th. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| On a more serious note. What can be done to help the people of Tibet? Constant, respectful relations with China. Sure the regime may be "bad" but they are there to stay and we have to deal with it. If we can't swallow our pride and do that, or if we are REALLY so indignant about the the China is treating Tibetans than sanctions or war with China. All this bleeding heart, western "outrage" is pathetic and laughable. |
Just wait until the torch makes its way through Canberra. I think there will be a lot of bleeding-heart clueless protesters there. Hell, even K-rudd (and isn't he fluent in Chinese, also?) said he's thinking of boycotting the games. |
Good for him. Sarkozy is thinking about it as well. The more Western leaders that don't go to the games the better. China deserves to be embarrassed for its relationship with Sudan and Burma (Tibet is a lot messier and complicated I admit). |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| On a more serious note. What can be done to help the people of Tibet? Constant, respectful relations with China. Sure the regime may be "bad" but they are there to stay and we have to deal with it. If we can't swallow our pride and do that, or if we are REALLY so indignant about the the China is treating Tibetans than sanctions or war with China. All this bleeding heart, western "outrage" is pathetic and laughable. |
Just wait until the torch makes its way through Canberra. I think there will be a lot of bleeding-heart clueless protesters there. Hell, even K-rudd (and isn't he fluent in Chinese, also?) said he's thinking of boycotting the games. |
Good for him. Sarkozy is thinking about it as well. The more Western leaders that don't go to the games the better. China deserves to be embarrassed for its relationship with Sudan and Burma (Tibet is a lot messier and complicated I admit). |
Personally, I think the actions of Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown and Kevin Rudd among others is nothing more than political grandstanding that accomplishes nothing. It�s a grown-up form of pouting. I hope Bush shows more class than that. He has shown more class, thus far, with concerns to the Chinese vis-a-vis the Tibetans. He has entertained both Hu Jintao and the Dali Lama at the White House. The best option would be for Bush to go to the opening ceremonies then give a speech in Bejing concerning the plight of the Tibetan people. That would send a signal to China that the U.S. has its concerns about Tibet while not coming off as anti-Chinese. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| On a more serious note. What can be done to help the people of Tibet? Constant, respectful relations with China. Sure the regime may be "bad" but they are there to stay and we have to deal with it. If we can't swallow our pride and do that, or if we are REALLY so indignant about the the China is treating Tibetans than sanctions or war with China. All this bleeding heart, western "outrage" is pathetic and laughable. |
Just wait until the torch makes its way through Canberra. I think there will be a lot of bleeding-heart clueless protesters there. Hell, even K-rudd (and isn't he fluent in Chinese, also?) said he's thinking of boycotting the games. |
Good for him. Sarkozy is thinking about it as well. The more Western leaders that don't go to the games the better. China deserves to be embarrassed for its relationship with Sudan and Burma (Tibet is a lot messier and complicated I admit). |
Personally, I think the actions of Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown and Kevin Rudd among others is nothing more than political grandstanding that accomplishes nothing. It�s a grown-up form of pouting. I hope Bush shows more class than that. He has shown more class, thus far, with concerns to the Chinese vis-a-vis the Tibetans. He has entertained both Hu Jintao and the Dali Lama at the White House. The best option would be for Bush to go to the opening ceremonies then give a speech in Bejing concerning the plight of the Tibetan people. That would send a signal to China that the U.S. has its concerns about Tibet while not coming off as anti-Chinese. |
I agree with Pluto.
Bush's approach towards China has been remarkably deft. Remember when Hu Jintao came to D.C.? He gave him a mere lunch meeting. And a protestor was allowed to interrupt for a full TWO MINUTES.
Now he is going to China, just at the moment they need him. Just at the time when they cannot afford to embarrass him in return.
I mean, c'mon, is this not uncharacteristically brilliant on Bush's part? Credit where credit is due. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:28 am Post subject: |
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i'm missing what makes it so brilliant.
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| Personally, I think the actions of Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown and Kevin Rudd among others is nothing more than political grandstanding that accomplishes nothing. It�s a grown-up form of pouting. I hope Bush shows more class than that. He has shown more class, thus far, with concerns to the Chinese vis-a-vis the Tibetans. He has entertained both Hu Jintao and the Dali Lama at the White House. The best option would be for Bush to go to the opening ceremonies then give a speech in Bejing concerning the plight of the Tibetan people. That would send a signal to China that the U.S. has its concerns about Tibet while not coming off as anti-Chinese. |
That would send a signal? No it wouldn't. Actions speak louder than words. There is a reason that is a proverb. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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The economist once again speaks for me
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| To accuse China's critics of �politicising� a sporting event is nonsense. What has the relay to do with sport? It is not some timeworn practice integral to the games. Rather, the idea of a relay from Greece to the Olympic venue was revived by the Nazis for the 1936 Berlin Olympics, which is hardly a precedent China wants to advertise. The first �global� relay only took place for the most recent Olympics, in Athens in 2004. But that was not such a circus. China's pride may preclude any concession, however face-saving, on Tibet, or on human-rights abuses in general. But it is also facing criticism for its foreign policy�its links with the governments of Sudan and Myanmar in particular. Here, in theory, it can do something to show that it is indeed a responsible international �stakeholder�, with diplomatic maturity as well as economic clout. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I don't see how two wrongs make a right. Beijing should not have been given the Olympics. But now the West wants to boycott what was awarded?
What Olympics guidelines has Beijing violated? The West has set down its own yardsticks ex post facto on the Chinese gov't's behavior.
Furthermore, no doubt the PRC's behavior around the world is disgusting. But why should this mar the games for Chinese citizens.
I think a boycott would be folly. Chastise the Chinese gov't, support the Chinese people. Host the Dalai Lama, sanction Burma, divest from the Sudan, embarass Chinese emissaries on your own time, but treat the Olympics as the international games.
If I were Chinese, I would despise the West for their hypocrisy. |
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Yep, a boycott would be a very bad move on a variety of levels, and I too have to give Bush some credit for his deft handling of the situation. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I don't see how two wrongs make a right. Beijing should not have been given the Olympics. But now the West wants to boycott what was awarded?
What Olympics guidelines has Beijing violated? The West has set down its own yardsticks ex post facto on the Chinese gov't's behavior.
Furthermore, no doubt the PRC's behavior around the world is disgusting. But why should this mar the games for Chinese citizens.
I think a boycott would be folly. Chastise the Chinese gov't, support the Chinese people. Host the Dalai Lama, sanction Burma, divest from the Sudan, embarass Chinese emissaries on your own time, but treat the Olympics as the international games.
If I were Chinese, I would despise the West for their hypocrisy. |
No reasonable person is calling for a total boycott of the games. I wouldn't view world leaders staying at home as a boycott. I merely view it as a protest of China's behavior in the international arena.
I view it as a protest of both the IOC and China.
And how are we being hypocritical? |
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