Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Bingo]

Why are Korean employers so dishonest? Back home you'll find a dishonest employer here and there, but in Korea it seems to be a mass phenomemon. Finding an honest employer with a conscience is a rare feat. The majority are crocodiles and feel no shame about ripping off their foreign employees, nor any worry about how their actions reflect on Korea. I've worked at a wide range of jobs in Korea (hogwans, Gepik public schools, companies) and I have yet to encounter an honest employer. In every case I've had to battle to get my correct pay, questioned odd deductions, fought to prevent overtime sinking into a black hole, to justify using sick days that I'm "entitled to" in the contract etc.

I don't get it. Are Koreans raised to believe that dishonesty is okay so long as it is profitable? I just don't know. But I'll tell you one thing. If I had to make a list of hundred words that I associated with Korea or Koreans, 'honest' would not make the list at all.

Can anyone (Korean, Gyopo, foreigner) explain this phenomenon to me?

[monkinwonderland]

I disagree with your assertion that "most" are dishonest.

But there certainly are a lot. I think there are two factors at work. The first is that you're in the "out-group" as someone called it before. Korea is a very closed society with tight rules of interaction. When you're outside of this culture, you're not subject to these rules, and unfortunately for us, some will abuse that.
Secondly, I think it's partial the type of person who opens a hagwon. I find them analogous to the Western notion of the used car salesmen in that the stereotype is one of a dishonest failure.

[wylies99]

The government does very little, in Korea, to punish dishonest and illegal behavior by business owners.

[shapeshifter]

[Juregen]

[wylies99]

[billybrobby]

[Join Me]

At the hawgwans I have worked at Korean instructors got lied to and cheated as much as the foreign instructors if not more. They mostly had to take it or find a way to deal with the lousy reference they would get from the employer. Secondly, some people say this is not representative of Korean society. All I say to that is BS! Anyone who has lived here more than three years can give you the names of half a dozen CEOs in Korea that have been tried and convicted of embezzlement and other crimes during their time as the CEOs of Korea's largest corporations.

Each and every one of these thieves has been set free by the Korean court system. Sorry folks, this country is rotten from the mom and pop hawgwan all the way up to Samsung. Sure there are a lot of good Koreans out there, but honesty is definitely a lesson that needs to be reviewed more in Korean schools.

And spare me the "it happens all over" comments. I lived in the US for a long time and saw plenty of corporate crooks go to jail for their misdeeds. I have yet to see ONE get punished in Korea. Honestly, it makes me sick. Hell, I am sure America could be doing better if we let every crook off the hook "for the good of economy"...the difference is most Americans just don't think that is the right thing to do. Koreans seem to think it is the only option.

[sojusucks]

I agree with BillyBrobby. Koreans expect much less than Westerners in a work environment -- I think many Westerners would call this environment "slave-like." Why?

Well, first, because laws are only guidelines here. One Korean told me that they do not vote on their laws and enforcement is realitively lack. If a sentence or fine is imposes, simply bribe your way out of it. Westerners vote on their laws and have stricter enforcement. Perhaps that's why we try to abide by the law.

As for being a member of the out group: that merely allows us to receive racist steoreotypes, which does impact how we are treated. For example, banks treating us like criminals when we remit monies earned here, etc. Also, being part of the "out group" means that we are entitled to less. However, as far as treatment goes, I do not think that we are treated too dissimilarly from Koreans in the workplace. Koreans have to dance with their bosses -- at least at the public schools I've taught at -- and many other things that they don't like. And they had better not refuse those of a higher status anything or they could risk being put into the "out group."

Westerners are used to "fair" labor conditions and we will fight for our rights as provided by law. Many Koreans do not; they merely feel sad about it and keep on going through life. To deal with this, Koreans merely take out anger on lower status individuals. I am sure that everyone has noticed these incidences. This returns us to the out group, which is considered a lower status than Koreans and may serve as a Korean's "emotional theraputic agent" if you will.

This entire issue is a bit delicate and intricate. This thread could be several research project in itself.

Anyway, all these behaviors are what gave Koreans a horrible international reputation. Let us learn from their lesson and be careful that our societies never treat people so inhumanely.

[Return Jones]

If you've ever done business internationally, you'd know that Korea is not unique in the regard. It's more of a cultural thing among a lot of non-western countries.

Of course, to appease the bleeding hearts, yes I admit that Western countries indeed have their share of dishonest people and businesses. The difference, however, is that we would generally identify and categorize them as such. For example, the multi-level marketing companies, work from home scams, used-car dealers, dishonest mechanics, Columbia House, late-night infomercial companies are generally regarding as grey-area businesses. They end up listed in the Better Business Bureau Blacklist.

In Korea, the hoodwinking is just as likely to take place in a public school as it would an auto garage. That's the difference.

In my brief import/export career of about two years, I had chances to liase with India, Turkey, Russia, China, among others. I found the same sort of pull the wool over your eyes nickel and diming that you're probably referring to here.

For example, my company had a Turkish client that would make orders every 2-3 months. Days before his upcoming order he would file a complaint about the previous order and demand a ridiculous discount for the next one. If we didn't give it to him, he would always claim he wouldn't buy from us again. We demanded proof to back his claims of defect, missing items, etc, but he never provided anything. We refused to discount every time and he would simply call back the next day and place the order anyway as if nothing happened. It was a stupid predictable cycle every time.

I don't know what my point is exactly , other than this kind of behaviour and tolerance for minor dishonesty is more tolerated in some cultures than others. In North America businesses with tarnished reputations tend to fade away or attract freewheelin' anything goes types. Cutco, anyone?

I have a sneaky feeling that a lot of hagwon owners would be hustling Amway if they had better social contacts to offload the soap, lotions, etc, on. This goes double for the hagwon owners that don't speak English.

[red_devil]

[stevieg4ever]

They know they can get away with it + Korean society as a whole from the government to the police do absolutely nothing to prevent it therefore the foul behaviour and malpractice is somewhat encouraged (perhaps not directly but nevertheless). Another problem I have found is that the Korean media are extremely reluctant to document any deed where Joe foreigner has been abused in Korea at the hands of Koreans.

A line has to be drawn between corruption in business dealings and transacions as opposed to cheating and exploiting individuals. I am not saying that tax fraud or embezzlement are worthy of a noble prize nomination but I think it is much more serious when someone withholds your salary, pays you late and not in full, withholds your passport, uses intimidation tactics, makes demands of you outside of you contract, fails to provide adequete housing etc etc


'Join Me' and 'Sojusucks' are the only ones who have spoken any truth in this thread. People who keep claiming culture this and culture that are deluded and are missing the point because Koreans themselves would not put up with half of the c&%p a lot of us have to go through - hagwon or otherwise.

[reimund]

I definitely agree with the point about the hagwon industry generally attracting the wrong types of business men. Most of the executives are here to take advantage of their overseas work (learning English) that they pretty much received for free (if they were students at public schools) to take advantage and make a quick buck.

In terms of executives in general being shady and conducting dishonest practices, it all just comes down to their, again, wanting to make more money, more quickly. That's quite simply all it comes down to - sometimes, I can't blame them, because if anybody else were in their shoes, they'd probably do the same, it's just that people rarely get that chance. This isn't to support what they do, of course, but to express understanding in why they do it.

Shady business practices/executives aren't exclusive to just Asian countries, also. I've read about some research done on high level execs in America, that noticed a general tendency for them to have sociopathic tendencies.

[red_devil]

[rebel_1812]

needless to say this sort of behaviour will have international reprecussions which I don't think korean people understand. For example I met a korean girl for lunch today and we were talking about the dokdo island thing. She said to me japan was being greedy and she was angry that america wasn't helping korea and taking japans side. I told her maybe america was angry at the US beef protests and so took japans side because of this. Her eyes widened for a moment then she flatly said no.

When I get back to canada I will tell all my friends about the criminals that run the hagwons here thereby increasing the bad reputation. But I don't think koreans understand the bad reputation is one of the reasons why japan has no problems getting native speakers meanwhile korean has to pay big time to get us. Cause and effect.